Return of the Book Thread

[Engels]

While we're on cyberpunk, are people familiar with Richard Paul Russo's Carlucci? So much of cyberpunk is overblown pretentious twaddle, it was refreshing to read a noir-ish novel set in a cyberpunk world where its not about smacking the reader over the head with the world created. Instead, the world is a back drop to a very good bit of story telling.

[Merusk]

Friedman is kind of hit and miss. Her first big book, In Conquest Born, is really quite good and This Alien Shore is a pretty good read as well. Then she did a sequal to In Conquest about 15 years latter, and it was pretty much shit. She also did a trilogy of Fantasy books, but they came out as rather average fluff I thought.

The "Coldfire" trilogy.  It was ok and slightly above 'average fluff,' IMO. I certainly think they're about equal to the Black Company stuff I'm currently reading. I enjoyed Tarrant much more than the Hero.. who was so bland I've completly forgotten his name and facts other than that he was a priest.   

 One of these days I'm going to remember to pick-up Snow Crash.  I've enjoyed Gibson's stuff and keep getting new things out of it when I re-read it, now some 15 years later.  From what I understand Stephenson is even better, yes?

[Chimpy]

Friedman is kind of hit and miss. Her first big book, In Conquest Born, is really quite good and This Alien Shore is a pretty good read as well. Then she did a sequal to In Conquest about 15 years latter, and it was pretty much shit. She also did a trilogy of Fantasy books, but they came out as rather average fluff I thought.

The "Coldfire" trilogy.  It was ok and slightly above 'average fluff,' IMO. I certainly think they're about equal to the Black Company stuff I'm currently reading. I enjoyed Tarrant much more than the Hero.. who was so bland I've completly forgotten his name and facts other than that he was a priest.   

What makes the coldfire stuff better than most of the stuff being produced at the time is that she paints her world in varying shades of grey. Hell, you can argue that the protagonist and antagonist are both the same person during many stretches. Very different from the cookie cutter "classical" fantasy yarns  that pit ultimate good vs. ultimate evil. It is not high art, but it is definitely better than most of the stuff out at the time.

[Engels]

One of these days I'm going to remember to pick-up Snow Crash.  I've enjoyed Gibson's stuff and keep getting new things out of it when I re-read it, now some 15 years later.  From what I understand Stephenson is even better, yes?

Not really better. They are different animals. Gibson appeals more to the imagination than Stephenson, while Stephenson appeals more to the historian/technophile.

[Merusk]

One of these days I'm going to remember to pick-up Snow Crash.  I've enjoyed Gibson's stuff and keep getting new things out of it when I re-read it, now some 15 years later.  From what I understand Stephenson is even better, yes?

Not really better. They are different animals. Gibson appeals more to the imagination than Stephenson, while Stephenson appeals more to the historian/technophile.

Well that certainly explains why the people who were raving about Stephenson to me didn't care much for Gibson.  One was a history major, the other was a music teacher.

What makes the coldfire stuff better than most of the stuff being produced at the time is that she paints her world in varying shades of grey. Hell, you can argue that the protagonist and antagonist are both the same person during many stretches. Very different from the cookie cutter "classical" fantasy yarns  that pit ultimate good vs. ultimate evil. It is not high art, but it is definitely better than most of the stuff out at the time.

No idea on the time of publication. I picked them up and read them.. ooh some 7 or 8 years ago now.  I just recall they were better than the other crap people were recommending to me at the time, which was all Drizzt/ Dragonlance pablum.

[Muggi]

Not really better. They are different animals. Gibson appeals more to the imagination than Stephenson, while Stephenson appeals more to the historian/technophile.

Well said.  I'd say Gibson focuses more on technology's impact on the spiritual/metaphysical world, where Stephenson looks more at it's impact on culture, economics, and day-to-day life.  Not to say they are exclusive to those domains but, it's a fairly accurate rough breakdown.

Not familiar with Richard Paul Russo, I'll have to look for that my next trip to the library/bookstore.

I read Pattern Recognition by Gibson a couple months back..while not a BAD novel, I think ole Willie is starting to show his age.  It's sorta a Neuromancer/Mona Lisa Overdrive rehashing.  Very very familiar premise.

[Murgos]

I agree with Engels.  Gibson is very much a broad strokes of the imagination "what if" sort of writer who can paint a pretty good picture with only a few words. Stephenson is much more verbose, 'isn't this cool?' sort of thing.  Gibson invents things like the internet, virtual reality and viral marketing to drive a love story while Stephenson is more telling you what exactly is so damn cool about science and history (specifically the history of science) in the middle of a love story.

I think Gibson has a wider, more mass market, appeal and Stephenson's audience is more the technocratti.

[Rasix]

Finished Anansi Boys.  Standard Gaiman fare, and I completely loved it.  Only took a couple days.   Been also mowing through most of the Dresden file books.

Either going to read book 5 of the Malazan series or go back to Dresden.  Sometime it's really hard to pull yourself away from the quick/fun reads and back into something a little more serious. 

[Morat20]

Finished Anansi Boys.  Standard Gaiman fare, and I completely loved it.  Only took a couple days.   Been also mowing through most of the Dresden file books.

Either going to read book 5 of the Malazan series or go back to Dresden.  Sometime it's really hard to pull yourself away from the quick/fun reads and back into something a little more serious. 

I like the Dresden books, but they're more than a bit formulaic. (On the bright side, the writing has gotten better -- the fact that Storm Front was his first published book was obvious in retrospect).

As best I can tell,  pretty much every Dresden book goes much like this:
1) Quick viginette of Harry wrapping up some case to show he actually has a day job.
2) Harry getting involved in the main mystery, often through coercion or manipulation.
3) Harry poking around, and generally getting the shit kicked out of him by minions.
4) Harry getting a feel for the whole problem, and how it's more complex and bigger than he was told. He's still getting the shit kicked out of him, but now it's by mini-bosses.
5) Harry gets the ever-loving shit kicked out of him by a level boss RIGHT before he figures out what's really going on, who is behind it, and then passes out.
6) Harry goes after End Boss, despite the fact that technically he should be dead from all the shit-kicking he took, and is so exhausted and worn-out that he couldn't light a candle with magic.
7) Harry proceeds to get the shit kicked out of him by the End Boss for some time, then he focuses himself on Doing The Right Thing, and fucking obliterates everyone -- generally in a cool way.

But what the hell -- the roots of the Dresden books (mysteries!) tend to be formulaic by nature, and the writing is decent. Plus every time Harry obliterates someone who previously thought themselves "Teh Winner", I get flashbacks of Giles smacking down Evil Willow.

White Night wasn't as bad -- I think Dead Beat took the record for "Most Shit Kicked Out of Harry" -- and Butcher seems to have tried start emphasing that brute strength isn't everything. Plus, some of it's pretty damn cool to read -- Harry's ride to Darkhallow remains a rather memorable moment.

[WayAbvPar]

Finished Anansi Boys.

That is next on my list after the Baroque Cycle. Loved American Gods.

FWIW, I really liked Diamond Age as well. I thought the world was incredibly interesting.

[Chimpy]

So I returned the books I checked out last week and picked up Rushdie's The Satanic Verses. I figure almost 2 decades of hysteria about a book which I have never been able to find someone who actually read it to tell me if there was  anything there means I probably should just read it myself. Especially since it is once again a big news story.

I especially decided I needed to read it when I learned it was not a book about the Ayatollah Khomeini (which was the vibe I got from all the stories about it back in the late 80s/early 90s) a couple years ago.

Also picked up one of the newer C.S. Friedman books I had not read 'cause it was on the just returned shelf as well.

[Lt.Dan]

Recently finished Book 1 of the Malazan series based on a mention in this thread.  Liked it - nice to have a story which doesn't consist of a farmboy prophesized to save the world.  Will try and pick up book 2 next time I'm in the library.

I'm about half way through China Mieville's Perdido Street Station and have to say it's a great ready.  Got the suggestion from this thread so thanks for that.

I'm also rereading Watchmen.  That is seriously a fantastic work.

Neal Stephenson I find pretty hit or miss.  I really liked Crytonomicon but I could never get into the baroque cycle series...I got halfway through each book in the series before abandoning ship.  Some really fun action sequences but just too stretched out for me.

[Arrrgh]

Recently finished Book 1 of the Malazan series based on a mention in this thread.  Liked it - nice to have a story which doesn't consist of a farmboy prophesized to save the world.  Will try and pick up book 2 next time I'm in the library.

Keep at the Malazan books. They get better as you go along.

[Johny Cee]

Finished Anansi Boys.  Standard Gaiman fare, and I completely loved it.  Only took a couple days.   Been also mowing through most of the Dresden file books.

Either going to read book 5 of the Malazan series or go back to Dresden.  Sometime it's really hard to pull yourself away from the quick/fun reads and back into something a little more serious. 

I like the Dresden books, but they're more than a bit formulaic. (On the bright side, the writing has gotten better -- the fact that Storm Front was his first published book was obvious in retrospect).

As best I can tell,  pretty much every Dresden book goes much like this:
1) Quick viginette of Harry wrapping up some case to show he actually has a day job.
2) Harry getting involved in the main mystery, often through coercion or manipulation.
3) Harry poking around, and generally getting the shit kicked out of him by minions.
4) Harry getting a feel for the whole problem, and how it's more complex and bigger than he was told. He's still getting the shit kicked out of him, but now it's by mini-bosses.
5) Harry gets the ever-loving shit kicked out of him by a level boss RIGHT before he figures out what's really going on, who is behind it, and then passes out.
6) Harry goes after End Boss, despite the fact that technically he should be dead from all the shit-kicking he took, and is so exhausted and worn-out that he couldn't light a candle with magic.
7) Harry proceeds to get the shit kicked out of him by the End Boss for some time, then he focuses himself on Doing The Right Thing, and fucking obliterates everyone -- generally in a cool way.

But what the hell -- the roots of the Dresden books (mysteries!) tend to be formulaic by nature, and the writing is decent. Plus every time Harry obliterates someone who previously thought themselves "Teh Winner", I get flashbacks of Giles smacking down Evil Willow.

White Night wasn't as bad -- I think Dead Beat took the record for "Most Shit Kicked Out of Harry" -- and Butcher seems to have tried start emphasing that brute strength isn't everything. Plus, some of it's pretty damn cool to read -- Harry's ride to Darkhallow remains a rather memorable moment.

The first few Dresden books were very much like that.  Later books Harry tends to win more by trickery or playing off other factions against each other. 

I like the heavy emphasis on trickery and bluffing, though.  The Death Curse invention is a really neat way of making it so Harry can have conversations with people/things that should be killing him out of hand, but don't, without completely ruining the suspension of disbelief.


Try the Cook "Garrett" books which are in reprint now.  Noir fantasy detective novels,  with modern sensibilities.  A very large direct influence on Butcher,  though a hell of a lot darker.

The real attraction for the series is the metaplot.  Butcher is doing a good job of slowly moving along the both the story and the character development book to book.

[Johny Cee]

Finished Anansi Boys.  Standard Gaiman fare, and I completely loved it.  Only took a couple days.   Been also mowing through most of the Dresden file books.

Either going to read book 5 of the Malazan series or go back to Dresden.  Sometime it's really hard to pull yourself away from the quick/fun reads and back into something a little more serious. 

Gaiman has a new short story collection coming out soonish....  which has no original short stories in it.  I love the man's work,  but....

Malazan book 5 is a little different.  New continent, with mostly new characters,  and wierd imperialism/capitalism allegory.  Tehol and Bugg might be two of his most entertaining characters, though.  I think book 6 will be available in the States this summer.


Richard K Morgan's latest should be available in the US next week.

[Abagadro]

Diamond Age is really good. Probably less derivative than Snow Crash in fact (although I liked that book a lot too).

Keep plugging away Way (or is that redundant). That Baroque Cycle is great but there are some stretches where it gets a little dry.

[Samwise]

The Baroque Cycle is seriously awesome.  It took me about a hundred pages to get into it, but then I couldn't put it down.

There was a bit of cyberpunk flying around in this thread earlier today... for those who read and liked Snowcrash, I highly recommend Rainbow's End by Vernor Vinge.  It's very much like Snowcrash, but less silly, and with the big technology gimmick being augmented reality instead of virtual reality.

And in an entirely different sci-fi vein: Ilium and its sequel Olympos by Dan Simmons.  Even better than his Hyperion and Enydmion books IMO, so if you liked those, Ilium is a no-brainer.  It starts off with the Trojan War being re-created five thousand years in the future by nanotech-augmented post-humans who are playing at being Greek gods, and spirals off from there.  Great stuff.

[Teleku]

The Diamond Age started off good, but it started to really down turn about half way through for me, and I ended up really not liking it at all by the end.  Had one of the worst endings to a book I`ve read (felt like he just couldnt figure out a way to end the damn book and just stopped).  Also, what the hell was the moral of the story he pressed at the end?  In the end, the Nazi`s will always win?  Bleh, ended up hating the book, despite having a really cool world and having some really neat chapters.  Liked everything else he`s done alot better.

[Ironwood]

Nah I got it right the first time.  My reading level is just fine thx :)  Just didn't enjoy the book at all.  No reason to get all "waving arms above head" there champ.

I don't know what that means.  However, describing Diamond Age as 'complete pile of stinking crap on a page' while simultaneously admitting you didn't even finish it suggests to me that you'd benefit from trying again.

Anecdotally, my wife couldn't stand Memento - Which is one of my favourites - admitting that she 'just didn't understand it'.  On further re watches and perseverance she finally got it and, more importantly, got something out of it.

Diamond Age, to me, has an underlying message that's quite important.  That said, I have no idea where Teleku's Nazis fit in.  At all.

:)

[Teleku]

Kind of spoiler:

The racist murdering ultra-conservative fanatics that ended up violently taking over everything in the end?

Just out of curiosity, what was the important underlying message you got out of it?  Cause the one I saw I didn't like to much ;).

And I agree I wouldnt call it a pile of crap, cause it had alot of good parts, but on the whole I ended up not liking it at all for various reasons (ending/pacing/plot turns/ect.).

[Ironwood]

Technology is required to grow in tandem with social concerns, not simply economic ones.

I really, really didn't see 'em as Nazi's.  They were, to my mind, simply isolationist technophobes who feared a lack of control in their own lives.  Which is mostly due to my first line up there.

I'm not saying it's his best.  Despite the Baroque stuff being good, Crypto is STILL his best.

[murdoc]

I really liked 'Anansi Boys'. When I get caught up with the Malazan series, I'm going to go back to Gaiman stuff again. I've only read 'American Gods', 'Anansi Boys', and his first series of shortstories.

Speaking of the Malazan series, I'm just wrapping up book 3. I thought the last quarter of the book bogged down a bit when they get to Coral, but I'm going to dive straight into book 4 as soon as I'm done the last few pages. Really enjoying the series so far. I'd happily read whole books dedicated to Quick Ben.

[Chimpy]

And in an entirely different sci-fi vein: Ilium and its sequel Olympos by Dan Simmons.  Even better than his Hyperion and Enydmion books IMO, so if you liked those, Ilium is a no-brainer.  It starts off with the Trojan War being re-created five thousand years in the future by nanotech-augmented post-humans who are playing at being Greek gods, and spirals off from there.  Great stuff.

I liked them both, though there seem to be a lot of people in this thread who follow the "amazon review gestapo" (as I like to call them) idea that any time Dan Simmons writes a new book in the same world it is a total piece of crap because it is not as good as the original. While Olympos is not as good as Illium it is still better than half of the crap sold in the sci-fi/fantasy section. That is not to say people are not allowed to not like the book, but the idea that something that comes later has to be better than the original to be considered valid is an annoyance

One thing about Illium though, it is damn heavy reading. First time I read it I had to stop after a chapter or two to let my brain process everything, which is very odd for me as I usually tend to read as much as I can at a time.

[Morat20]

I liked them both, though there seem to be a lot of people in this thread who follow the "amazon review gestapo" (as I like to call them) idea that any time Dan Simmons writes a new book in the same world it is a total piece of crap because it is not as good as the original. While Olympos is not as good as Illium it is still better than half of the crap sold in the sci-fi/fantasy section.

The problem with Simmons is that, well, he first creates a marvelous, mysterious, and generally fucking cool world. Then the next book explains it all, and while it's nice and shit -- his strength is in that "mysterious, cool fucking world" part. The explanations tend to just break apart what makes his books good. So I'm pretty much always going to prefer Ilium to Olympus for that reason -- also, Ilium has the best ending ever. :)

Johhny Cee: I agree that Butcher has been moving away from the formula, and I'm rather glad he has. Supposedly, though, he's looking to out-Jordan Jordan. 20 case file books, and a 3-book Armageddon trilogy to finish off the Dresdenverse.

On the bright side, the RPG they're doing for Dresden is based on FATE. I might even invest in that one.

[Johny Cee]

I liked them both, though there seem to be a lot of people in this thread who follow the "amazon review gestapo" (as I like to call them) idea that any time Dan Simmons writes a new book in the same world it is a total piece of crap because it is not as good as the original. While Olympos is not as good as Illium it is still better than half of the crap sold in the sci-fi/fantasy section.

The problem with Simmons is that, well, he first creates a marvelous, mysterious, and generally fucking cool world. Then the next book explains it all, and while it's nice and shit -- his strength is in that "mysterious, cool fucking world" part. The explanations tend to just break apart what makes his books good. So I'm pretty much always going to prefer Ilium to Olympus for that reason -- also, Ilium has the best ending ever. :)

Johhny Cee: I agree that Butcher has been moving away from the formula, and I'm rather glad he has. Supposedly, though, he's looking to out-Jordan Jordan. 20 case file books, and a 3-book Armageddon trilogy to finish off the Dresdenverse.

On the bright side, the RPG they're doing for Dresden is based on FATE. I might even invest in that one.

There's nothing wrong with long series,  as long as you have story/character/plot development or story arcs.  O'brian's "Aubrey & Maturin" historical fiction,  Foresters "Hornblower" books, etc.  The characters age, get married, grow, die, retire and change.

Jordan's fucking problem is he hasn't done anything that hasn't been reversed in a book or two.  He's been bringing back or retreading the same exact plotline forever, while continually adding new characters.  We know exactly how the story ends (Armageddon!), as well,  Jordan just refuses to take us there.

Butcher has been moving the characters and story arc along pretty well...  or at least at a pace that I'm happy with.  At this point,  my major interest is how he's treating the war storyline and how the background characters develop.  I enjoy the way the minor characters seem to grow a bit book to book (Butters, Molly, Murphy, Billy & crew...)

Butcher just really needs to stop writing that fantasy series...  that thing is awful.

[Chimpy]

Jordan's fucking problem is he hasn't done anything that hasn't been reversed in a book or two.  He's been bringing back or retreading the same exact plotline forever, while continually adding new characters.  We know exactly how the story ends (Armageddon!), as well,  Jordan just refuses to take us there.

Well, since he is dying he is wrapping it all up in the upcoming (if he doesn't die first) book.

At least that is the word I hear.

[Merusk]

Wow, that's going to suck then.  Until his disease took a big turn south it was supposed to be two books. 

Then again.. if they actually put an editor to it, and cut out all the skirt smoothing, sniffing, and 4-page descriptions of the grocery list for two fucking characters, they might  find themselves with an engaging book again.


I'm hoping GRR gets over his health problems, too. He's a ways off from finishing that one off, I think.  Speaking of, wasn't there supposed to be another book out this year?

[Chimpy]

I'm hoping GRR gets over his health problems, too. He's a ways off from finishing that one off, I think.  Speaking of, wasn't there supposed to be another book out this year?

The other half of the book he split up to make Feast for Crows was supposed to be released in 06.

[Merusk]

I'm hoping GRR gets over his health problems, too. He's a ways off from finishing that one off, I think.  Speaking of, wasn't there supposed to be another book out this year?

The other half of the book he split up to make Feast for Crows was supposed to be released in 06.

Yeah, but soon after FFC was released he'd posted that (once again) he had a lot more to write still and '06 wasn't going to happen, but instead it'd be 1q/2q of '07.  Err.. yeah.

Ed: Just went to his website and he hasn't updated on I&F since Feb of this year.  The update sounds like a lot of frustration with the whole thing to me.   I think he's just bored of writing the series.  Under News he lists a new novel that he co-wrote coming out on Sept 3rd. I thought co-writing always took MORE time than solo writing... which also adds to my "he's bored" suspicions  :-D 

[Reg]

Jesus. I thought the point to splitting the book in two was that when he FINISHED the damned thing he discovered it was too big.

[Chimpy]

Jesus. I thought the point to splitting the book in two was that when he FINISHED the damned thing he discovered it was too big.

I think he was like....2/3 done or something and his editor was "uhm, George, the bosses won't let us even attempt publishing more than 1k pages because they can't make a paperback bigger than that. Can we cut this in half?".

[bhodi]

I was in the audience for the Colbert Report on Monday night, and he said that he had 4 days left before he turned his book over to the publishers.

[Engels]

I was in the audience for the Colbert Report on Monday night, and he said that he had 4 days left before he turned his book over to the publishers.

Gah, I can't find the interview on the comedy central site!

[Morat20]

Yeah, but soon after FFC was released he'd posted that (once again) he had a lot more to write still and '06 wasn't going to happen, but instead it'd be 1q/2q of '07.  Err.. yeah.

Ed: Just went to his website and he hasn't updated on I&F since Feb of this year.  The update sounds like a lot of frustration with the whole thing to me.   I think he's just bored of writing the series.  Under News he lists a new novel that he co-wrote coming out on Sept 3rd. I thought co-writing always took MORE time than solo writing... which also adds to my "he's bored" suspicions  :-D 

His publishers should take a cue from the ones that worked with Douglas Adams. They had to drag Adams away, lock him in a hotel room, and tell him he couldn't go home until he had a first draft out the door. It was the only way to make him work.

[bhodi]

Dammit, someone should have warned me that At All Costs did not end the series. It was like a cruel joke, realizing there were major plot points left to deal with that have yet to be written.