Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online

[Threash]

I really hope they deliver a solid game because I'm dying to know what the real-world subscriber base is for this type of game.

If they can deliver shadowbane with resetting maps and win conditions and 2015 polish i'd never stop playing.  To be quite honest besides the polish part what they are promising is not that far fetched.  I know people around here think that kind of game will drive away players in droves but people loved shadowbane and put up with a whole lot of shit that simply would not fly in any other game just to get that kind of experience.  If someone can provide the same experience without electrocuting your balls in the process (some) people will play.

[Malakili]

If they can deliver shadowbane with resetting maps and win conditions and 2015 polish i'd never stop playing.  

This kind of thinking has burned us dozens of times before.  There will never be one game to rule them all.  That's Star Citizen thinking.  I'll be satisfied if this game is worth a box price.  You've got to set the bar lower.

[shiznitz]

The good:  After the change which broke the game space into PvP and PvE worlds, the player base and income nearly doubled (we went from 125k to 245k subs).  So from a fiscal responsibility standpoint it was a totally winning move.

The bad:  Without the "sheep to shear" the hard core PvP'ers were disenfranchised.  They didn't like preying on each other (hard targets versus soft targets), and they became a smaller minority in the overall game.  The real bad though was that the intensity and "realness" of the game for all players was diminished.  This was the major unintended consequence.

We are specifically making our game for players who will like the kind of experience we will create, not trying to cast a wide net to get a mass market audience.  We want the folks who will appreciate an intense gaming experience with real risk, winning *and* losing.  While we want as many players who are engaged in our game as possible, we won't need millions of players to make our game work.

Highlighted what matters to us. There were even back then about 125k willing to play the game (UO) with its original intensity and "realness". If these folks can pull that number in 2015, they will have done their job and Gordon Walton will be forgiven for Trammel.

What most shocking is the word "unintended." Adding Trammel was clearly and obviously going to lower intensity dramatically.

[palmer_eldritch]

That thread originated because someone figured out that Walton was "responsible" for Trammel in UO. Apparently, there are still some PK misanthropes out there who have been nursing a grudge about it for 15 years.

Here is the story he gave on that topic.

Yes, I'm the person who is responsible for bringing you Trammel and the dilution the original UO.

And I regret some (but not all) of the outcome.  My charter as the VP of Online at Origin Systems (and Executive Producer of UO), was to grow the game.  The unforgiving play environment that made UO so intense was clearly driving away between 70+% of all the new players that tried the game within 60 days.  The changes we came up with to address this problem were a compromise, mostly driven by fiscal, technological and time reasons.

The good:  After the change which broke the game space into PvP and PvE worlds, the player base and income nearly doubled (we went from 125k to 245k subs).  So from a fiscal responsibility standpoint it was a totally winning move.

The bad:  Without the "sheep to shear" the hard core PvP'ers were disenfranchised.  They didn't like preying on each other (hard targets versus soft targets), and they became a smaller minority in the overall game.  The real bad though was that the intensity and "realness" of the game for all players was diminished.  This was the major unintended consequence.

There's more at the link. Nothing new. The sheep were escaping to games where they weren't locked in a cage with a bunch of psychopaths. Origin didn't want UO to bleed out. Thus a compromise.

In a sense, Trammel already existed, before it was created in UO.

I played UO back in those days. When Gordon "Tyrant" Walton came along, he was hailed as something as a messiah by a lot of UO players, or at least the ones I listened to who were the posters on TRoLtM or whatever it was called at that moment in time. Not just because sorting out the PKing situation in UO was seen as a good thing, but because he was seen as someone who generally injected a professional approach into Origin, which was perceived to be pretty dysfunctional at the time.

Of course this might just mean that the hive mind was wrong in 2000. However, the game was extremely brutal before Trammel, far more so than Eve today for example (imagine Eve but everywhere is 0.0 space once you undock). With full looting. Just don't mention it's not a mirror.

One of the things that excited UO players about Everquest when it came out, as well as the 3d graphics and the fact that it had different races (people really wanted to be elves), was that it had no PvP unless you actually chose to turn it on. So Tyrant wasn't completely dumb to think UO needed radical changes, even if he didn't get it entirely right.

I think a PvP focused MMO can succeed though. They just need to ensure the penalty for dying isn't too prohibitive, so that people actually want to take part in PvP instead of being terrified of it

[shiznitz]

Removing loot is the best way to soften PvP consequences. People will still want to kill each other and the loser has little reason to cry in his Wheaties.

[Kageru]

On the other hand when UO existed there weren't as many competitors for online play and the wolves were probably a bit less organized than they would be today. But as long as they've budgeted their costs for being a niche game the more variety the better.

The idea of keeping some proportion of the look you collect between campaigns is logical. But it's still a case of rewarding the winners and will encourage large scale organisations if pooled resources allow them to leapfrog the opposition. As well as getting safe access to (or being able to farm) the embargo point.

[Threash]

On the other hand when UO existed there weren't as many competitors for online play and the wolves were probably a bit less organized than they would be today. But as long as they've budgeted their costs for being a niche game the more variety the better.

The idea of keeping some proportion of the look you collect between campaigns is logical. But it's still a case of rewarding the winners and will encourage large scale organisations if pooled resources allow them to leapfrog the opposition. As well as getting safe access to (or being able to farm) the embargo point.

You don't get to bring in stuff to the next campaign, your loot goes to your "eternal kingdom".  They haven't exactly been quite clear on what the point of the eternal kingdom is so far, besides a way to reward winners without upsetting the balance of following campaigns.

[Draegan]

I think it's 100k. People scoffed at that earlier but the market has expanded and plenty of people are looking for something that isn't just another WoW veneer.

It really depends on the quality of the game. If its well executed and works, it's three times that. If its a more polished dark over its right around 100 to 150k

[Draegan]

On the other hand when UO existed there weren't as many competitors for online play and the wolves were probably a bit less organized than they would be today. But as long as they've budgeted their costs for being a niche game the more variety the better.

The idea of keeping some proportion of the look you collect between campaigns is logical. But it's still a case of rewarding the winners and will encourage large scale organisations if pooled resources allow them to leapfrog the opposition. As well as getting safe access to (or being able to farm) the embargo point.

  
You don't get to bring in stuff to the next campaign, your loot goes to your "eternal kingdom".  They haven't exactly been quite clear on what the point of the eternal kingdom is so far, besides a way to reward winners without upsetting the balance of following campaigns.

It vary from bring in everything you can to nothing at all. It's up to you.

[Rendakor]

The more relevant question is what can you take out of the EKs into the PVP areas.

[Draegan]

The more relevant question is what can you take out of the EKs into the PVP areas.

I just answered that.

[KallDrexx]

I honestly believe that this may be the best shot we are given to show that new and different MMO gameplay can be a successful and profitable business.

That being said, the consumer in me isn't willing to shell out any money till it's released and I can get some reviews.

[Falconeer]

New info!

Passive Training / Skills FAQ

How does passive training work?

Passive training allows you to advance your character(s) skills, whether or not you are actively logged in and playing the game.
Narratively speaking, this is represented in the game by having a temple with Thrall priests “praying” for your Hero to remember the skills from his previous life.

Is there active training, too?  

Yes, you can advance a skill through use -- but only to get proficiency.  Passive training is the primary way of advancing your character's skills.

Can I only train one skill at a time?

Actually, no!  You can train a character in three skills at any one time.  They don't all advance at the same rate, however.  

You select a primary, secondary and tertiary skill to advance.  The primary will advance quickest, followed by the secondary, followed by the tertiary.
What scale is used for skills?

100% is the "theoretical maximum" of a human hero.  As a point of reference: if your character has a  100% sword skill, then they could compete as an Olympic-level fencer.  

Since our players are immortal champions, chosen by the Gods at the time of their death, they often have skills above the “theoretical maximum” that a human mortal can achieve. Anything above 100% is heroic level; bards wrote poems that centered around your skills and your achievements are the stuff of legends.
How quickly do skills advance?

These numbers are still being balanced, but we're generally going for something like this: to reach 100% level with any skill takes 1 month of primary training, 2 months with secondary, 3 months with tertiary.  

The results are granted on a diminishing returns curve, meaning that it is much easier to gain the first 10% of any skill than it is to gain the last.  
As an upshot of this system, every time you log in, you should see advances in three of your skills!


Can I train more than one character at once?

Yes, if you have an optional VIP membership. A VIP membership allows you to train three characters in parallel. Each character will also have three passive training slots (i.e. it works the same way with ALL THREE characters, as it does with the first one.)

Once I select a primary, secondary or tertiary skill to train, can I change it? Or is it locked?  

It is not locked.  You can change (and re-order) which three skills you want to train at any time.

Can I train beyond my skill max?

No. You can only train up to your skill max.

Can I increase my skill max?

Yes. Max skills are determined by a combination of your archetype, promotion class, advantage and disadvantage runes, and Disciplines.

How are the skill increases calculated over time?

The gains are done on a diminishing returns curve. While it may be quick to gain those low-end skill points, mastery of a skill (i.e. the upper portion of the range) will take a considerable amount of time. It may be more beneficial to work on a bunch of skills at the low end rather than taking a skill to the absolute max. How you choose to advance is up to you!

What if I hit a skill max, and I am not able to get online?

No problem! You can queue-up additional skills to train.

[Triforcer]

New info!

Passive Training / Skills FAQ

How does passive training work?

Passive training allows you to advance your character(s) skills, whether or not you are actively logged in and playing the game.
Narratively speaking, this is represented in the game by having a temple with Thrall priests “praying” for your Hero to remember the skills from his previous life.

Is there active training, too? 

Yes, you can advance a skill through use -- but only to get proficiency.  Passive training is the primary way of advancing your character's skills.

Can I only train one skill at a time?

Actually, no!  You can train a character in three skills at any one time.  They don't all advance at the same rate, however. 

You select a primary, secondary and tertiary skill to advance.  The primary will advance quickest, followed by the secondary, followed by the tertiary.
What scale is used for skills?

100% is the "theoretical maximum" of a human hero.  As a point of reference: if your character has a  100% sword skill, then they could compete as an Olympic-level fencer. 

Since our players are immortal champions, chosen by the Gods at the time of their death, they often have skills above the “theoretical maximum” that a human mortal can achieve. Anything above 100% is heroic level; bards wrote poems that centered around your skills and your achievements are the stuff of legends.
How quickly do skills advance?

These numbers are still being balanced, but we're generally going for something like this: to reach 100% level with any skill takes 1 month of primary training, 2 months with secondary, 3 months with tertiary. 

The results are granted on a diminishing returns curve, meaning that it is much easier to gain the first 10% of any skill than it is to gain the last. 

As an upshot of this system, every time you log in, you should see advances in three of your skills!
Can I train more than one character at once?

Yes, if you have an optional VIP membership. A VIP membership allows you to train three characters in parallel. Each character will also have three passive training slots (i.e. it works the same way with ALL THREE characters, as it does with the first one.)

Once I select a primary, secondary or tertiary skill to train, can I change it? Or is it locked? 

It is not locked.  You can change (and re-order) which three skills you want to train at any time.

Can I train beyond my skill max?

No. You can only train up to your skill max.

Can I increase my skill max?

Yes. Max skills are determined by a combination of your archetype, promotion class, advantage and disadvantage runes, and Disciplines.

How are the skill increases calculated over time?

The gains are done on a diminishing returns curve. While it may be quick to gain those low-end skill points, mastery of a skill (i.e. the upper portion of the range) will take a considerable amount of time. It may be more beneficial to work on a bunch of skills at the low end rather than taking a skill to the absolute max. How you choose to advance is up to you!

What if I hit a skill max, and I am not able to get online?

No problem! You can queue-up additional skills to train.

Their board crowd is already freaking out that they cannot grind to max in a week.  Everyone who starts on day 1 will be in pretty much the same place on day 10, day 100- I like it.

[Sophismata]

Their board crowd is already freaking out that they cannot grind to max in a week.  Everyone who starts on day 1 will be in pretty much the same place on day 10, day 100- I like it.

Why do I find that so delicious?

This looks like a really strong approach to skill progression. They could also pro-rata the skill training rates such that even if you jump in late you can eventually catch up with the day-1'ers.

Also, I really like the way they tie the system narratively to the game. There's a lot you can do in that space (bending game fiction to suit and complement game mechanics) that many games fail to actualise.

[Falconeer]

It really seems that someone FINALLY decided to try and see if what EVE did was just a fluke or actually good design.

What's left to see is the importance of proficiencies as opposed to "skill training".

Is there active training, too? 

Yes, you can advance a skill through use -- but only to get proficiency.  Passive training is the primary way of advancing your character's skills.

[Draegan]

I really like that they are taking lessons learned in Eve and Tera.

[Threash]

Eh, i considered the fact that you could get a nearly maxed character in shadowbane in less than a day one of its best features.  It allowed for a ton of variety, a three month time investment would never lead to dagger throwing dwarf warriors.

[Tearofsoul]

I couldn't stop thinking Crowfall Natalie at work 

[tazelbain]

But what will happen to time honored tradition of catassing to max and griefing the fuck out of casuals?

[Zetor]

But what will happen to time honored tradition of catassing to max and griefing the fuck out of casuals?

That role will probably pass to the day-0 (or headstart) players who amass a stable of maxed-out gankers in a few months, and use those exclusively to gank newbies. Sure, the newbies will eventually skill up, but there's going to be a few weeks/months while they are ripe for slaughter!

[Merusk]

Eve has gatecampers. Crowfall will have resource campers.

Which means rule #1 is: Have a minimum of 2 accounts.

[schild]

Which means rule #1 is: Have a minimum of 2 accounts.

I think we all know what Rule #1 is, and that's not it.

[Falconeer]

Chris Roberts tells his flock to give money to Crowfall.

Crowfall is exactly what I was hoping Star Citizen might help enable crowd funding to create. It’s an AAA-quality game that shakes up traditional MMORPGs by trying something new. Crowfall is the brainchild of J. Todd Coleman and Gordon Walton, industry veterans par excellence. In fact, if there’s an award for most impressive MMO pedigree, these two may have a lock on it. Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, The Sims Online, The Old Republic… they were even working on massively multiplayer titles before anyone coined the phrase, with games like Air Warrior and Battletech! These are two developers who could walk into managing any MMO in the industry… and it’s all the more impressive to me that they’ve chosen to build something different with the crowd instead.

Crowfall is something entirely new: the blending of an MMO with a large-scale strategy game… all within a distinctive setting that will feel right at home alongside Britannia and Azeroth. It claims to be an “MMO you can win,” which is an absolutely fascinating concept… and one that they’re backing up, like Star Citizen, by revealing their game design decisions early. Crowfall may not take place in the 29th century, but at its core it’s a game after our own hearts all the same.

[Paelos]

Oh fuck off Chris.

[KallDrexx]

Wait so is he taking credit for MMOs being successful on kick starter?

[Malakili]

Crowfall is actually just another Star Citizen module, it's accessed through a holodeck only available on the $2000 ships.

[Teleku]

Crowfall should promise if they hit 20 million, the stretch goal will be a free totally unique ship in Star Citizen for those who back at over $100.  

[Draegan]

Crowfall should promise if they hit 20 million, the stretch goal will be a free totally unique ship in Star Citizen for those who back at over $100.  

That's genius.

[Hutch]

Chris Roberts tells his flock to give money to Crowfall.

Crowfall is exactly what I was hoping Star Citizen might help enable crowd funding to create. It’s an AAA-quality game that shakes up traditional MMORPGs by trying something new. Crowfall is the brainchild of J. Todd Coleman and Gordon Walton, industry veterans par excellence. In fact, if there’s an award for most impressive MMO pedigree, these two may have a lock on it. Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, The Sims Online, The Old Republic… they were even working on massively multiplayer titles before anyone coined the phrase, with games like Air Warrior and Battletech! These are two developers who could walk into managing any MMO in the industry… and it’s all the more impressive to me that they’ve chosen to build something different with the crowd instead.

Crowfall is something entirely new: the blending of an MMO with a large-scale strategy game… all within a distinctive setting that will feel right at home alongside Britannia and Azeroth. It claims to be an “MMO you can win,” which is an absolutely fascinating concept… and one that they’re backing up, like Star Citizen, by revealing their game design decisions early. Crowfall may not take place in the 29th century, but at its core it’s a game after our own hearts all the same.

That's some hype machine he's got going there.

Crowfall isn't a AAA anything yet. It's not a game until players can log in and start murdering each other.

[WayAbvPar]

The mutual handjobs for other KS projects is annoying. STFU an tell me about THIS project, not other charlatans hucksters confidence men dev teams that want my money.

[Paelos]

The mutual handjobs for other KS projects is annoying. STFU an tell me about THIS project, not other charlatans hucksters confidence men dev teams that want my money.

If you liked... YOU'LL LOVE...

[Sophismata]

The mutual handjobs for other KS projects is annoying. STFU an tell me about THIS project, not other charlatans hucksters confidence men dev teams that want my money.

If you liked... YOU'LL LOVE...

Ordinarily yes, but they haven't actually played SC yet. They might not like it, there's nothing yet to go on.

[HaemishM]

Of course the backers have played Star Citizen. It's not like the game in their head will be any less real than what Chris Roberts will produce. 

[Draegan]

To be fair, there are some playable chunks  of the game.