WAR - another newsletter - more RvR, less sport PvP

[Nebu]

I love it when unreleased games talk about expansion content.  It gives me great hope for their state at release.

You can actually leave the green off of that. Pushing large features to an expansion far in advance may actually mean the developer has a clue about scheduling their resources instead of promising everything and the kitchen sink on day 1.

How about focusing time and energy on making the release a success first?  Then you can promise me the moon once I've been hooked. 

I appreciate what you're saying, but many game makers can't even deliver on day one.  Who's to say that an expansion is even warranted?  Do you think Vanguard, Earth & Beyond, or Tabula Rasa should be discussing an expansion? 

[Triforcer]

Give evey class the skills needed to defeat every class and let the players choose which ones to go into battle with.

You're not going far enough.  Give every class a decent hope of winning any match up all the time.  Player skill, preparation, strategy and a hint of luck should decide the outcome of a duel.

Speaking from a MMO company shareholder's position, umm, no.  You CANNOT make an MMO where winning and losing are mostly dependent on skill.  10% of the people win 90% of the time.

PvP balancing WoW-style promises this:

1)  If I am higher level/grind more gear at 70, I'll probably win.

2)  If I face classes X, Y, and Z, I'll probably win.

This gives the unskilled a chance to win, which they wouldn't have had previously.  This is why MMOs will never be FPSes or chess.  A gear/class balance PvP games promises all people victory at least some of the time.

[Venkman]

10% of the people win 90% of the time in MMORPG PvP too. Because of the level/gear grind needed to achieve that level of "probably winning". RPG-based PvP is only different from FPS-based in how it differentiates between the haves and have nots (heavy emphasis on time, some emphasis on skill vs the reverse in FPS games).

Consider COD4 vs WoW, where a level 10 player is up against a level 50 player.

If you want approachable PvP in an RPG, the first thing you do is remove the levels as a requirement, which, like, contradicts the premise of the experience to begin with. You never need to do that in an FPS.

[Calantus]

Give evey class the skills needed to defeat every class and let the players choose which ones to go into battle with.

You're not going far enough.  Give every class a decent hope of winning any match up all the time.  Player skill, preparation, strategy and a hint of luck should decide the outcome of a duel.

Speaking from a MMO company shareholder's position, umm, no.  You CANNOT make an MMO where winning and losing are mostly dependent on skill.  10% of the people win 90% of the time.

PvP balancing WoW-style promises this:

1)  If I am higher level/grind more gear at 70, I'll probably win.

2)  If I face classes X, Y, and Z, I'll probably win.

This gives the unskilled a chance to win, which they wouldn't have had previously.  This is why MMOs will never be FPSes or chess.  A gear/class balance PvP games promises all people victory at least some of the time.

You can win by ganging up on people regardless. This is why people zerg in BGs.

[Velorath]

10% of the people win 90% of the time in MMORPG PvP too.

Maybe if you're talking about arenas, 1 on 1, or getting ganked while you're leveling.  I've found the odds of winning to be much better than that though in some of WoW's BG's, and even RVR in DAOC.

[rk47]

Give evey class the skills needed to defeat every class and let the players choose which ones to go into battle with.

now you're talking about first person shooters.

Not really.

There is no other, genre, game or sport I can think of designed to play as scissors-paper-rock, where each player is locked into one or the other for an entire match, let alone their entire playing 'career'.

Counterstrike as analogy.
picking mp5 vs awp users has its merits and downsides. But those with really good twitch skills just run around with AK47 short-burst killing average players on sight with no sweat. Those specialists in AWP are no slouch either, just when you think you get the jump on him, he just swings around and let off a round on your torso. Bang. Any gun can beat any gun. Even pistols or knives. But you can never carry AWP + AK47 + MP5 at the same time. But you're never locked into the role either, if you see a gun lying around during a gun fight, you can choose to drop your current weapon and pick it up. Or just buy a new one after a round ended.

[tmp]

Counterstrike as analogy.
picking mp5 vs awp users has its merits and downsides. But those with really good twitch skills just run around with AK47 short-burst killing average players on sight with no sweat. Those specialists in AWP are no slouch either, just when you think you get the jump on him, he just swings around and let off a round on your torso. Bang. Any gun can beat any gun. Even pistols or knives. But you can never carry AWP + AK47 + MP5 at the same time. But you're never locked into the role either, if you see a gun lying around during a gun fight, you can choose to drop your current weapon and pick it up. Or just buy a new one after a round ended.

Translating this into MMO environment: everyone gets a single skill, ability to shoot a bow or to fire a fireball. The damage and range of these will slightly vary but for all it takes 2-3 hits to kill any enemy so the fight turns into race of who can lock on the enemy and fire their load before they do. If you removed the 'Tab key to lock on target' aspect it'd even boil down to 'twitch' skill that's selecting the enemy on screen fast enough.

Point remains though, with the skillset reduced to single ability (firing the gun) there's no reason to have "classes" since everyone's character is very similar to everyone else.

[Venkman]

Exactly why I said "consider COD4 vs WoW, where a level 10 player is up against a level 50 player. "

Some people think stats are an equalizer. They are not. All they do is bracket players a different way, requiring a different type of achievement (time). And the worse part is that there is no way to "practice" gaining more time. You either have it or you don't.

[Phred]

Give evey class the skills needed to defeat every class and let the players choose which ones to go into battle with.

now you're talking about first person shooters.

Not really.

There is no other, genre, game or sport I can think of designed to play as scissors-paper-rock, where each player is locked into one or the other for an entire match, let alone their entire playing 'career'.

Hockey; Goalie.

[eldaec]

Give evey class the skills needed to defeat every class and let the players choose which ones to go into battle with.

now you're talking about first person shooters.

Not really.

There is no other, genre, game or sport I can think of designed to play as scissors-paper-rock, where each player is locked into one or the other for an entire match, let alone their entire playing 'career'.

Hockey; Goalie.

A hockey golie is countering the entire opposition attack, not just opposition who play in one particular way.

A hockey goalkeeper is a cleric in mmog terms. But not a cleric who can only heal melee damage, and not a cleric who wtfpwns right wingers, but can't do anything to stop left sided players.

[Dash]

You can actually leave the green off of that. Pushing large features to an expansion far in advance may actually mean the developer has a clue about scheduling their resources instead of promising everything and the kitchen sink on day 1.

How about focusing time and energy on making the release a success first?  Then you can promise me the moon once I've been hooked. 

I appreciate what you're saying, but many game makers can't even deliver on day one.  Who's to say that an expansion is even warranted?  Do you think Vanguard, Earth & Beyond, or Tabula Rasa should be discussing an expansion? 

I think "maybe in a future expansion" is sort of the default answer for "yeah we though that was cool too but no way to we have time to do it before release".  Or an answer a dev gives to say no in a nice way.

I agree though, focus on the release.  It makes me crazy when fans ask about stuff like housing or if they can swim underwater or if they can actually sit in chairs.  I mean yeah great if all your other systems and content are super polished awesomeness and you have some coders doing nothing fine.  Or maybe if you have unlimited time and funds to put in anything you want ok.  Beyond that though, shuttle that superfluous stuff to an expansion or patch or whatever. 

[tazelbain]

Why not just ability to choose any class, then? Simpler and has the same effect (depending on your choice and whoever you run into you'll either rape or get raped) Not to mention giving some class-defeating abilities would be quite difficult when each class can reconfigure themselves.

Because players like classes and, in general, make a good starting point. I wouldn't say a cleric with anti-rogue skills should rape a rogue with no anti-cleric.  It'd depend on how many and the exact nature of the skills.  But a cleric with a 3 anti-rogues should have a substantial advantage.  The outcome should a forgone conclusion unless the rogue gets help.  Of course, no one can load out enough skills to cover even half of the classes.  I don't see how that's any less fair than how rogues traditional abuse clerics.  The difference is rogue can't 100% rely on a victory.  Like poker, sometimes you run into 72 vs AA.  In the long term, it'd be self-balancing because players would tend to load the anti-'s for overpowered classes.

Like, give the Player dozens of Tactics and Morale Abilities while only giving him enough space to have a few of them active anytime?
Sounds familiar, somehow.

1) WAR isn't going to allow you to unlock everything for you class which is really more of sub class thing.
2) Having lots of skills to choose from doesn't mean anything if they are all bound to your role and not the skills needed to kill everyone else.

The main complaint about GW model is iirc, when there's fuckton of different abilities to equip it rapidly reaches point where you lose any ability to counter the enemy's moves because you can't tell anymore what the abilty they just activated actually does.

Any system that requires players to make choices about skills (like WoW or DAoC) will have a choice paralysis problem "can't try until you buy".  I admit the problem was a bit bigger in GW, but At least you didn't have the re-spec bs.  And if the total time to unlock all skills had been more reasonable, it wouldn't have be a big deal.

Nothing prevents developers from explicitly telling you who the skill counters and how. "Man I so tired of all these damn druids. I'll load up 'Wood Rot" and "Leash Law". Let's see how those jackasses like that shit."

[WayAbvPar]

Because players like classes

Hold up there, chief. Pls2be speaking for yourself, kthx. Some of us loathe classes, and are extremely hesitant about ever paying for another game that depends on them.

[tazelbain]

LoL, even FPS have classes these days.  I stand be the quote. A few people swimming against stream don't bother me.  I personally would prefer them to be less rigid.

[Johny Cee]

We're getting into differences in PvP balancing (class to class) and RvR balancing (side to side).

DAoC had shitty class balance,  but the balance between realms was alot better (with exceptions....  Animists and Bainshees in siege the major one).

Is the goal supposed to be a differentiated realm/side with roles to fill,  like football?  Or is it a bunch of solo folks running around that happen to be on the side,  like old school FPSes?

[eldaec]

Is the goal supposed to be a differentiated realm/side with roles to fill,  like football?  Or is it a bunch of solo folks running around that happen to be on the side,  like old school FPSes?

Based on what they have said, I'm assuming they are primarily balancing for team vs team, and not for a bunch of soloists.

Given Mythic's history, I doubt this is the game that solo players are looking for. The two endgame systems seem to be based on daoc and GW, two of the least solo friendly dikuMMOGs in history. (daoc coiuld be PUG friendly - but solo not so much)

I mostly play Clerics. So I don't care. Forced grouping for teh win, come bring the puppet master my xp tribute you dps bitches. But I know other people here won't approve.

[Merusk]

Is the goal supposed to be a differentiated realm/side with roles to fill,  like football?  Or is it a bunch of solo folks running around that happen to be on the side,  like old school FPSes?

Based on what they have said, I'm assuming they are primarily balancing for team vs team, and not for a bunch of soloists.

Given Mythic's history, I doubt this is the game that solo players are looking for. The two endgame systems seem to be based on daoc and GW, two of the least solo friendly dikuMMOGs in history. (daoc coiuld be PUG friendly - but solo not so much)

I mostly play Clerics. So I don't care. Forced grouping for teh win, come bring the puppet master my xp tribute you dps bitches. But I know other people here won't approve.

I agree with you on this. Not only on the "this game will be group balanced" bit but on the "roll a healer and never have to worry about forced grouping" part. 

Now.. if only healing was more than just watching bars empty then refilling them.

[rk47]

if mythic can live up to 'no u won't be buff bitch or heal bitches' part about healing classes, i'm so hopping into it.
but i wonder about the PVE game in the midst of all this RVR thingy.

do we still grind?

[Calantus]

Long buffs are beyond retarded and MMOGs need to do away with them in favour of short and powerful buffs like Bloodlust and Icy Veins. Destroying the core of healing classes by making them DPS or be wasted so the DPS OCD mouth breathers will play them is also retarded because some people actually like to heal.

Yes I did just call you a mouth breather.

EDIT: Smilie added to take away hostility of statement!

[Trippy]

10% of the people win 90% of the time in MMORPG PvP too. Because of the level/gear grind needed to achieve that level of "probably winning". RPG-based PvP is only different from FPS-based in how it differentiates between the haves and have nots (heavy emphasis on time, some emphasis on skill vs the reverse in FPS games).

Consider COD4 vs WoW, where a level 10 player is up against a level 50 player.

If you want approachable PvP in an RPG, the first thing you do is remove the levels as a requirement, which, like, contradicts the premise of the experience to begin with. You never need to do that in an FPS.

Competitive MP FPSes have an incredible emphasis on time played. In other words the more you play an FPS the better you get (imagine that).

[rk47]

well trippy, FPS has that 'carry over skills' from one series to another, cause WSAD is standard, as well as 'right click to zoom', mouse drag cursor over target. There is a slight difference such as prone, crouch, jump, cover tactics but the basics never change. Bullets travel in a straight line and all that.

[Dash]

Now.. if only healing was more than just watching bars empty then refilling them.

Either of you cleric types ever try the vanguard healers?  To be fair WoW Priests do a similar DPS/Heal thing but Vanguard was my first experience with a melee healer.  Looks like WAR is following suit.  It's tough to balance but it was certainly the most "fun" healer I've played. 

[Merusk]

Long buffs are beyond retarded and MMOGs need to do away with them in favour of short and powerful buffs like Bloodlust and Icy Veins. Destroying the core of healing classes by making them DPS or be wasted so the DPS OCD mouth breathers will play them is also retarded because some people actually like to heal.

Yes I did just call you a mouth breather.

EDIT: Smilie added to take away hostility of statement!

We've discussed, in other threads, how much reactive healing sucks. You're always behind and the first one blamed.  I'd rather see a lot of proactive healing bits like FF's "shell" and "shield" spells and other such wards.  If the healer has to monitor several short duration but powerful buffs and THEN you toss some of the "make red bar green" spells, then ok.  You've just changed the dynamic a bit made it more proactive and, provided the right type of buffs/ wards, brought the healer into the encounter a bit more than just "Oh, this one makes bars go down fast."

[Numtini]

I rolled healers in DAOC, I could never get a group. Everyone had their own personal buffbot/healbot. I remember sitting in Avalon castle and there were like a dozen people there, 6 level 50 botclerics and 6 people levelling solo. No group for me. Healing is not a guarantee of groups in PVP games.

Mythic's fanbase has an institutional tendency towards BOTulism, so they will really have to make it absolutely impossible to bot or they'll get overrun again. My understanding is all the healers in War are supposed to be hybrids, I don't know anything about how they're handling buffs.

I liked my red mage from FFXI or my radiation defender from COX as a model for a support class. Most of my damage mitigation was from active debuffing, not healing. Those are the only two games I can think of where I cast a debuff and there was a difference you could notice in gameplay, not just when you crunched the combat logs.

[Fordel]

We've discussed, in other threads, how much reactive healing sucks. You're always behind and the first one blamed.  I'd rather see a lot of proactive healing bits like FF's "shell" and "shield" spells and other such wards.  If the healer has to monitor several short duration but powerful buffs and THEN you toss some of the "make red bar green" spells, then ok.  You've just changed the dynamic a bit made it more proactive and, provided the right type of buffs/ wards, brought the healer into the encounter a bit more than just "Oh, this one makes bars go down fast."

Guild Wars does this *extremely* well. Sometimes 'too well' from the DPS point of view 

[Nebu]

I rolled healers in DAOC, I could never get a group. Everyone had their own personal buffbot/healbot. I remember sitting in Avalon castle and there were like a dozen people there, 6 level 50 botclerics and 6 people levelling solo. No group for me. Healing is not a guarantee of groups in PVP games.

Mythic's fanbase has an institutional tendency towards BOTulism, so they will really have to make it absolutely impossible to bot or they'll get overrun again. My understanding is all the healers in War are supposed to be hybrids, I don't know anything about how they're handling buffs.

Good Clerics are always in demand for RvR.  Bots can only buff.  Active healers are badly needed for good groups.  In DAoC the one way to guarantee yourself a group every night you play is to play a healer or a cc class.  I'm not sure why you struggled.  Every server I played on for 5+ years there were always people shouting for competent healers for RvR (either 8 man or keep take groups).

[tazelbain]

We've discussed, in other threads, how much reactive healing sucks. You're always behind and the first one blamed.  I'd rather see a lot of proactive healing bits like FF's "shell" and "shield" spells and other such wards.  If the healer has to monitor several short duration but powerful buffs and THEN you toss some of the "make red bar green" spells, then ok.  You've just changed the dynamic a bit made it more proactive and, provided the right type of buffs/ wards, brought the healer into the encounter a bit more than just "Oh, this one makes bars go down fast."

Guild Wars does this *extremely* well. Sometimes 'too well' from the DPS point of view 

That could be a whole thread by itself.

Also CoV corruptors are fun healers. And Smite Clerics

[tmp]

Nothing prevents developers from explicitly telling you who the skill counters and how. "Man I so tired of all these damn druids. I'll load up 'Wood Rot" and "Leash Law". Let's see how those jackasses like that shit."

Hmm but that doesn't really counter what i was pointing out -- a class is defined by their skillset. If you can load any set of skills for your character, it makes concept of 'anti-class' skills self-defeating. Because when that druid you face can be capable of *anything* depending on their choice of skills, and the only thing that makes them a druid' is character class icon next to their name... how do you make a skill 'anti-druid'?

Or do you mean something like regular classes, but with ability to slot a number of immunities to certain skills of other classes? That could probably be more plausible, but at the same time suspect also very prone to really mess things up and make certain combinations relatively too powerful (racial fear immunity in WoW etc for example)

[tazelbain]

Your right, I mean class counter skills, not skill counters.  A skill that has devastating effect against intended target class/role, but substandard against everyone else.

I don't think a druid should be capable of *anything*.  I believe that a druid should have effective counters to any other class should they need/want to advantage of it.  A druids base capability as the utility healer would be set by core skills in their plant/animal themes. Additionally they'd have a set(still in the plant/animal theme) to deal with each of the other classes.  Also it wouldn't matter to me if the druid could play any role.  Plant DPS, Plant Healing, Plant CC.  Then other classes could have anti-plant skills that even more devastating but with the drawback of being more specific.  Or anti-poison which is use a counter to the poison theme of several classes(or course they may not be).

>(racial fear immunity in WoW etc for example)
I thought the problem wasn't with the skill itself, but with the fact that its so much better than the everyone else's racial?

[tmp]

>(racial fear immunity in WoW etc for example)
I thought the problem wasn't with the skill itself, but with the fact that its so much better than the everyone else's racial?

Not sure, but thought the issue was it'd effectively disable the main defense ability of another class, which would make that class very easy target. So extrapolating that, being able to 'turn off' strong point(s) of other class could lead to more situations where some classes are turned into easy pickings because they rely on limited amount of offensive/defensive 'speclais' ... and so are easy to shut down by equipping single anti-skill.

[tazelbain]

I don't see the problem.  The whole point of counters to give you a substantial advantage. Obviously, playtesting and balancing is required so that some anti`s aren't vastly more powerful than others. "easy to shut down by equipping single anti-skill" but its one less that you don't have for base skills or other anti-skills.  And if you don't run into some who uses fear, it does you little good.  It left up to the players divine what their enemies will be using and determine if any what counters to use.

In group vs group, things wouldn't shake out so simply.  The larger the groups, the more likely it would that someone has your counters and you have someone else counters loaded.  Does everyone run the after their own intended counter or focus fire on one opponent like most games? If you figure out an opponent has you counter before he does, what do you do?  How do compose your group? With lots of counters to cover all the classes or with lots of base skills so your team works efficiently?

[eldaec]

On the 'how to do healers well' thing. CoX rules.

GW was ok, but basically a less impressive version of CoX.



The trick is buffs and debuffs paired with heals, and making the buffs and debuffs short duration, situational, and impossible to run them all at once.

You also need to avoid the draconian limitations on stacking that daoc had.

[Nebu]

Limit buffs to self only and give classes debuffs.  It's no fun being a buffer... ever. 

[Xanthippe]

Make people buy buffs. 

 

[shiznitz]

Limit buffs to self only and give classes debuffs.  It's no fun being a buffer... ever. 

Buffs shouild be group or AoE, not just self. Then you can spread different buffs across skills/classes.