New Patch. Bonus: Comes with free violin for paladins.

[Fabricated]

Also, thank god this patch was really small or done differently, no bittorrent.

Seal of the Crusader was fixed, and the whining has just begun. The paladin forum was locked or taken down temporarily from what I can tell.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-general&T=1408039&P=1

Best Quote, from an Orc Character:

Boo hoo...Paladins can no longer exploit a class bug. My heart bleeds crunchy peanut butter for your plight.

See you under my boot Paladins!

[Calantus]

Also, thank god this patch was really small or done differently, no bittorrent.

This is not a content patch. Don't worry, you'll be using the bittorent ripoff again soon. ;)


As for Paladins... meh, just use righteusness with judged crusader and judge the righteousness when judgement cools down. Almost the same damage as pre-fixed SotC, but for far more mana. I also thought this change would suck the balls when I heard of it, but then I tried out the above combo on my new paladin (who is still too boring and thus on hold). All this did was make SotC largely useless. I like how the PVP crowd are crowing over this this fix despite the fact that most paladins rely on SoC for PVP.

[ahoythematey]

"Soon" is such a relative word with Blizzard.  I'm not holding my breath on another big content update before Shadowbane has another expansion pack.

[Dren]

The Paladin "fix" was definitely more than I bargained for.  For the same mob I was fighting on Monday, I am now hitting it for 30 dmg less per swing.  At level 51, that's a ton more whacks I have to sit through to make it dead.  That requires me to now buff myself twice during a fight rather than once.  That requires that I use more mana, etc, etc.

Paladins are still hard to kill and will probably wear down any other class one on one at even level, but all this "fix" did for me is make combat that much more boring or more reliant on another class to help with the DPS because I certainly do not have it.  At 51 with all the best equipment that is sensibly obtained at my level I am only doing around 60 dps for even level mobs.

Perhaps other players with other classes can chime in on if that sounds low or not, but from what I've read it is.  It was taking me about 60 seconds to take down just one even level mob last night.  Just think about that....  Yes, I was not even close to dieing during all that, but with the number of kills that need to be racked up for quests and leveling, that is painfully slow.

Paladins are still uber, but I think you'll see less of them being played just from the extreme boredom.

[Paelos]

That's pretty average for a warrior, FYI. Even moreso for a protection specced warrior like myself.

[Dren]

That's pretty average for a warrior, FYI. Even moreso for a protection specced warrior like myself.

Interesting.  That kind of supports my thought that they should have gone after raising the DPS of the Warrior some way rather than decreasing the Paladin's.  Both classes lack range (moreso the Pally,) and the magic classes can bomb a much higher DPS than we can AFAIK.

Whatever, like I said even with the same DPS of the Warrior, we get to heal, cure, res, etc.  Pally's are still above the bottom of the barrel so it is probably all good.  I need to do some more experimenting to see the full extent of the "fix."

[Morfiend]

Paladins did to much damage, with way to much defence. It made them an unballanced class. Big time. Did this "fix" go to far? That remains to be seen, but something needed to be done.

On my server, probably 80% of human character where paladins. Most large pvp fights consisted of about 30-45% paladins. Ouch.

[Righ]

From a purely PvE advancement perspective, the slow kill rate of Paladins, Priests, Druids and Warriors slows them down, but the higher kill rate of Hunters and Warlocks is mitigated by their pets sapping xp from the kill. Rogues, Shamen and Mages level at an alarming rate however. Mages move insanely fast if you know the AoE places.

[WayAbvPar]

Mages move insanely fast if you know the AoE places.

When and where? Any AoE I try at my current level gets me turned into a greasespot in a big hurry (or leaves me running away with my mana shield on, which is quite undigniified).

[Rasix]

From a purely PvE advancement perspective, the slow kill rate of Paladins, Priests, Druids and Warriors slows them down, but the higher kill rate of Hunters and Warlocks is mitigated by their pets sapping xp from the kill. Rogues, Shamen and Mages level at an alarming rate however. Mages move insanely fast if you know the AoE places.

Heh, from my experience the hunters and warlocks still level up at quite a nice clip.  The first 60's on my server were exclusively hunters and warlocks.  Even if they do get a chunk tithed to their pet, having nice DPS and the ability to take multiple mobs ease seems to allow them to kill at a staggering rate.  I've seen hunters pull off some solo crap that I have no prayer of being able to do.

Shaman, is pretty damn easy to level though. We can take two mobs our level with ease.  We can heal, cure poison and disease, have a travel form at 20, tank well enough once you get chain, and have an entire talent tree that is  solo pve slanted.

I have no pitty for paladins.  If playing on GODMODE is boring, reroll to something with teeth and at least the possibility dieing when 8 players are beating on you at the same time. 

[Righ]

Heh, from my experience the hunters and warlocks still level up at quite a nice clip.  The first 60's on my server were exclusively hunters and warlocks.

They don't need to wait for a group at any level, and are highly popular among catasses. Play one past newb levels. They level nowhere near as fast as rogues or mages. Not that I'm complaining. But feel free to call for hunter nerfs, I'm almost done, and will be playing rogue and mage more.

[Rasix]

Where did I call for hunter nerfs? You're taking this all a bit personally (other topic  too).   Nerfing someone's soloing ability would seem rather pointless.  Hunters seem to fit in pretty well with the balance currently in the game. I hear they need some abilities fixed, but I wouldn't mind them staying about where they are on the power curve.   My friend has a hunter, it's 42 and he barely even plays the thing.  But, I'll have to ask him tonight how the hunter plays out leveling v. his shaman.

Edit: On the subject of "on the chopping block" classes, I play two that will probably get hit pretty hard: shaman and rogue.  Shaman I can see why people hate.  Nothing like a class that has an answer for anything.    Rogue though, I don't get the hate.  It seems like most competent players would have a way to be rogues.

[MrHat]

Mages move insanely fast if you know the AoE places.

When and where? Any AoE I try at my current level gets me turned into a greasespot in a big hurry (or leaves me running away with my mana shield on, which is quite undigniified).

AoE guide on the WoW forums.

My mage is now L36 with just over 2days played.  I have a bud that follows me around with his L44 druid and heals me while I pull entire camps of murloc's and AE them to death.

A good spot to start doing it at L29 is the Murloc Camps W of Southshore (in Hillsbrad).  Even though Hillsbrad is a heavy PvP zone, this area is left alone.  After that (L36) move yourself to the Mirkfin camps in Dustshallow Marsh.

[WayAbvPar]

Wow, nice link. I never thought about how to take advantage of the AE spells. I am only 24th level, so I don't have a lot of the stuff I will need to do it effectively, but now I know what to look for. Cool!

[Calantus]

Edit: On the subject of "on the chopping block" classes, I play two that will probably get hit pretty hard: shaman and rogue.  Shaman I can see why people hate.  Nothing like a class that has an answer for anything.    Rogue though, I don't get the hate.  It seems like most competent players would have a way to be rogues.

I think alot of the hate from rogues comes from stunlock strategies. Personally I don't give a toss because if you're stunning me you wont kill me before my brother rips you a new one, but it would be HIGHLY annoying if solo. I've seen gank videos where the rogue would attack people and they'd be at 1/3 of their life before they could do anything most of the time. The other times they either died or got lucky on resists. That's gotta suck bigtime. The other complaint is from fools who don't realise that Stam > All else on a PVP server regardless of class and almost go down in a single ambush. Or they get ambushed while fighting a mob and the "I lost to a rogue" event doesn't attach the fact that you would have died to anyone being so lame.

If I was blizz I'd nerf the stunlock strategy and then make it so that SS can actually fricken miss and leave rogues alone besides fixing bugs.

[Jobu]

I think alot of the hate from rogues comes from stunlock strategies. Personally I don't give a toss because if you're stunning me you wont kill me before my brother rips you a new one, but it would be HIGHLY annoying if solo. I've seen gank videos where the rogue would attack people and they'd be at 1/3 of their life before they could do anything most of the time. The other times they either died or got lucky on resists. That's gotta suck bigtime. The other complaint is from fools who don't realise that Stam > All else on a PVP server regardless of class and almost go down in a single ambush. Or they get ambushed while fighting a mob and the "I lost to a rogue" event doesn't attach the fact that you would have died to anyone being so lame.

If I was blizz I'd nerf the stunlock strategy and then make it so that SS can actually fricken miss and leave rogues alone besides fixing bugs.

I'd be comfortable putting cheap shot and kidney shot on the same timer. That'd minimize a lot of the never-ending stream of stun. But really, stunlock isn't that hot, since you're wasting all your energy on stuns instead of damage. I can get people to 1/4 health in one round of combo point buildup... which is maybe 2-3 seconds (not exactly a lot of time to react to). Stunlock is for noobs who mash Sinister Strike. That, I think, is why there's so much hate.

[Calantus]

I'd be comfortable putting cheap shot and kidney shot on the same timer. That'd minimize a lot of the never-ending stream of stun. But really, stunlock isn't that hot, since you're wasting all your energy on stuns instead of damage. I can get people to 1/4 health in one round of combo point buildup... which is maybe 2-3 seconds (not exactly a lot of time to react to). Stunlock is for noobs who mash Sinister Strike. That, I think, is why there's so much hate.

Yeah, by far the biggest annoyance with stunlock is the inability to do anything for a while. It really is something that should never be possible. As much as I like my druid's root I must say that it is also something that should have some kind of timer. Same with warlock fear and secude. I know these classes tend to rely on fear/root/seduce kiting, but it's something that should never be factored into their balance. Give them the occasional out on a timer, then give them the ability to win with THAT.

[Strazos]

I don't have a lot of hate for Warlocks or Rogues, especially when it comes to PvP. Sure, they solo tons better than my Warrior, but I would expect that. In PvP though, things even out a lot. I would consistently rape Warlocks, especially after I got Intercept. Rogues were a bit more tricky and up to luck really. I could beat rogues, but it was tons more difficult. Basically, it came down to who got the jump on who, and if my/their specials land.

I had tons of hate for Paladins....more dmg, survivability, utility...

And hunters....besides their being FotM, I just thought they were a bit over-powered, especially the pets...I could still beat them handily in PvP usually, though kiting makes it a Lot harder.

[Jayce]

I don't have a lot of hate for Warlocks or Rogues, especially when it comes to PvP. Sure, they solo tons better than my Warrior, but I would expect that. In PvP though, things even out a lot. I would consistently rape Warlocks, especially after I got Intercept.

How did you get past chain fear?

[Shockeye]

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see it's path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

[ahoythematey]

He is the Kwisatz Haderach?

[Jayce]

He is the Kwisatz Haderach?

Oh man, if that's what I have to do, I suppose I won't be defeating any warlocks.

[Dren]

I saw a lvl 52 paladin beat a lv 59 rogue last night in a duel.  As I suspected, the "fix" didn't really affect PvP much.  It just made PvE even slower.

I worked on my plagueland quests some and found that killing was slower, but it really came to needing to drink more often for mana than anything.

If you had hate for Paladins before, it won't go away with this patch.

[blindy]

How did you get past chain fear?

Warriors have some immune fear abilites.  Berserker Rage is 10 sec immunity on a 30 sec timer.  Recklessness is 15 secs on a 30 minute timer.  And Death Wish is something like 30 secs on a 3 minute timer, but it's a talent deep in the fury tree and I've never had it. And if the warrior is undead, there's Will of the Forsaken too. Recklessness just destroys Warlocks in my experience (unless they recognize what's happening and successfully run away for its duration), but with it's super long timer they'll probably be back and fearing you again long before it returns.

[Sky]

Stunlock is for noobs who mash Sinister Strike. That, I think, is why there's so much hate.

You might be right, there. Because not only the victims hate it, but also the better rogues. Reminds me of UO bank thieves. I played a thief and despised the n00b bitches, along with everyone but the bank thief himself, and maybe his exploit partner.

Yeah, by far the biggest annoyance with stunlock is the inability to do anything for a while. It really is something that should never be possible. As much as I like my druid's root I must say that it is also something that should have some kind of timer.

One thing I think might need a nerf if it catches on is that engineering headpiece that has a 30 second sap on it. WoW needs a bit more rock/paper/scissor, it's kinda rock/rock/paper imo.

[Toast]

Stunlock is for noobs who mash Sinister Strike.

Help me out here. How does one get up to 5 combo points without some Sinister Strike mashing?

Does the stunlock hate mean that ambush/backstab are the only non-noob ways to go?

[Rasix]

Stunlock is for noobs who mash Sinister Strike.

Help me out here. How does one get up to 5 combo points without some Sinister Strike mashing?

Does the stunlock hate mean that ambush/backstab are the only non-noob ways to go?

If you read the official rogue boards (class boards are tollerable for the most part), this is a hot topic for debate.   It's all about the combat rogues (combat/assn build and sword use(some dagger)) v. ambush rogues (subtl/assn and dagger).   Ambush rogues like to call the combat rogues lazy button mashers while the combat rogues like to call the ambush rogues one trick ponies.   Both builds rely on the use of cold blood while the ambush rogues are also likely to have preparation.  Honestly, whether you lead with cheap shot, hit SS, 3 times, and then cold blood/evis are you a worse person than the ambush, ss x 4 or circle/jump spin backstab x 4, cold blood/evis person?    Combat rogues say they never lose to ambush rogues, ambush rogues say they laugh anytime they see a combat rogue.  It's all kind of pathetic with neither side posting concrete numbers on DPS nor is there any sort of definitive view one way or another on their pvp viablility.

Ambush is heavily dependent on gear.  Unless you have a good and slow (this is important) dagger, you will not be very effective going down this path.  Finding a good dps dagger that isn't 1.5 speed isn't an easy task until you're around 60 and can solo brs bar area for the barman shanker.

Combat is a lot easier to play because you don't have to worry a lot about positioning. SS doesn't require any position to hit.  Most combat rogues also tend to use cheap shot which means you don't have to manuever to the back.  Combat is also probably more efficient for solo pve since you'll be increasing your non-burst DPS and overall survivability.  Plus, as a sword rogue there's some good options out there with the Thrash blade available in your early 50's. 

With my rogue I'll be more of a 3 tree hybrid until I get a decent main hand dagger.  Then I'll likely go to more of an ambush build but one with 8 points in the combat tree.  Having preparation and cold blood will be very nice.  Two garunteed crits, two uses of evasion/sprint/vanish, and two shots of thistle tea.  MMMMMM.   Of course, I may end up liking my hybrid enough to keep.  I'm somewhat of a lazy bastard and don't like to run around strafing like I fell down the rabbit hole on the way to FPSland.  I probably would have been better served to play more Dark Age where all melee seemed to be about positional strikes.

Now on stunlock... it's not a combat rogue exclusive.  Ambush rogues can do it if they want. Just that approach isn't very practical in group PVP.  You want to dish out fast damage, not engage an enemy for a long time.  It can be useful though if you can single out a caster or weaker enemy, but if someone else catches on, you likely won't have time to finish. 

[WayAbvPar]

Ambush is heavily dependent on gear.  Unless you have a good and slow (this is important) dagger, you will not be very effective going down this path.

Forgive me- it is early, and I am off caffeine for the time being. Can you remind me why the speed of the dagger matters? I know I have heard the explanation, but it escapes my foggy head at the present.

[Jayce]

Ambush is heavily dependent on gear.  Unless you have a good and slow (this is important) dagger, you will not be very effective going down this path.

Forgive me- it is early, and I am off caffeine for the time being. Can you remind me why the speed of the dagger matters? I know I have heard the explanation, but it escapes my foggy head at the present.

Not sure if this is what he means from a rogue perspective, but as a warrior, some of my abilities rely on weapon damage + (some bonus). This means that a slow weapon of the same DPS would have higher base damage, thus doing more damage.

[Rasix]

You know the additional DPS you get for your attack power? That's added scaled to speed.  Say you get 50 extra DPS from your attack power and you've got 2 daggers with similar DSP but with differing swing speeds. 

If you have a 1.5 speed dagger, that's going to add 75 damage per swing.  If you have a 2.0 speed dagger, that additional damage is 100.  So, you slower dagger is going to end up having a larger damage range (you'll see this in your tool tip).   This damage range is used when calculating the damage for your ambush and backstab.  Since these abilities are not dependent on weapon speed (own timers) it's best to have a slower main hand weapon.  And also naturally, the slower weapon comes with a bigger damage range if the DPS is comparable.   But also, based on the above, a weapon that has the same damage range but a different DPS due to being slower, will stil be better for ambushes/backstabs.

It's still best to go pure DPS offhand. Speed preferrible so you can get more poison applications.

[WayAbvPar]

Ah, ok. That makes sense. TY for the explanations.

[Hoax]

I'll come back to WoW when they nerf the holy hell out of all shaman melee buffs.  How you can get off saying that SoC was overpowering but Windfury/Flurry is just fine?

I've fought many shaman that outdamaged any warrior and were almost up there w/ rogues in melee alone and when you add in shocks or god forbid insta cast lightning jesus the burst dps is stupid.

*shrug* pld healing or melee needed a nerf, no doubt about it, but I'm still waiting for all the racials but undead to get a boost and those shaman nerfs, any year now.

[Jobu]

Stunlock is for noobs who mash Sinister Strike.

Help me out here. How does one get up to 5 combo points without some Sinister Strike mashing?

Does the stunlock hate mean that ambush/backstab are the only non-noob ways to go?

Gouge adds combo points, stuns them and sets you up for a free backstab. So Ambush>Backstab>Gouge>Backstab, 4 or 5 combo points. No SS.

Rasix sums it up pretty well, actually. I lean towards the "sword rogues are lame" side of the argument, but it's really just playing style and preferences. Backstab builds load up tons of damage right away, and then you're kind of left hanging. Sword builds require a little less dexterity or quick-thinking during the fight IMO, and you get a higher sustainable DPS throughout. Like anything, there's a situation for everything. So I carry around both swords and daggers, and switch them around as needed. Daggers/ambush are my bread and butter though.

Weapon speed also helps with poisons. More hits, higher chance of them landing. Two daggers with deadly poison (the stackable DOT poison) are death.

With my rogue I'll be more of a 3 tree hybrid until I get a decent main hand dagger.  Then I'll likely go to more of an ambush build but one with 8 points in the combat tree.  Having preparation and cold blood will be very nice.  Two garunteed crits, two uses of evasion/sprint/vanish, and two shots of thistle tea.  MMMMMM.   Of course, I may end up liking my hybrid enough to keep.  I'm somewhat of a lazy bastard and don't like to run around strafing like I fell down the rabbit hole on the way to FPSland.  I probably would have been better served to play more Dark Age where all melee seemed to be about positional strikes.

That's exactly my build. Working my up to cold blood now... but it's tasty. Casters go down in like three good hits. Double vanish and evasion makes it a lot easier to destroy warriors and shamans.

I <3 Rogues

Ok... no more hijacking the thread about rogues. Back to your regularly scheduled paladin hate. I need to find some of the guys to duel. Looks like fun.

[murdoc]

Like anything, there's a situation for everything. So I carry around both swords and daggers, and switch them around as needed. Daggers/ambush are my bread and butter though.

I try to do the same, but tend to lean towards using cheapshot -> slice 'n' dice -> SS's - > Eviserate. I have maces, swords and daggers all as close to maxxed for my level as possible, but again, tend to lean more to using maces/swords since, as a human, I have bonuses to them.

Also depends if I'm grouped and with whom for what strategy I use. I think that's why I like playing the rogue so much, there's a lot of ways to approach the different situations and if I get bored playing one way, I'll switch to something slightly different.

It might not be the best and fastest way to level, but I fuck around wasting time as it is so I'm not too worried about it (7 days /played, only lvl 38)

[Morfiend]

Stunlock is for noobs who mash Sinister Strike.

Help me out here. How does one get up to 5 combo points without some Sinister Strike mashing?

Does the stunlock hate mean that ambush/backstab are the only non-noob ways to go?

stuff.

I disagree with a lot of the stuff you said there Ras. I myself am a combat rogue, with a 15/31/5 build, and I do pretty damn well in PVP/PVE. With lots of agi gear and the crit talant in assassination I have a 25% chance to crit. I do not have cold blood. I use blade fury and adrenaline rush from the combat tree along with ss and evis.

I would argue against splitting trees to much, there are some skills that are to good to pass up. If you are going to use a dagger, you need cold blood, casue crits are VERY important. Then you should also get improved sap, which is KEY for assassin rogues, casue you can sap some one from any side, and stay in stealth, that way while they are sapped, you can line up your ambush much easer. Also with assassin/sub spec you can some times hit ambush for 3 combo points, hit gouge for 1, then backstab for 1, then 5 point cold blood evis, all in about 4 seconds. its a REALLY nasty combo.

I have spent a LOT of time talking with rogues of different builds, and they all agree that if you split tress to much you will gimp yourself a little. I think my build is about as split as you ever want to go. I had a hybrid 3 tree build for a little while, it worked great up to about lvl 45 or so, but after that, the lack of high end talants starts to really hurt.

Combat rogues are much more geared to take out other melee classes, while assassin rogues are better at soft targets.

Feel free to PM me if you want to hop on my vent server and talk about rogue speccs some time.