Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]

[Sir T]

[Samwise]

Wooo I'm number 1!     Time to trade off the one who died, though.     I took Alys in the hopes she does something cool later.

[eldaec]

Agreed. It's never taken me out of the show once where I've sat there thinking 'oh wait how the fuck did they get there so fast?'.

Are you a book reader?

If I wasn't, I think I'd have a general sense that travel time used to be a thing but now isn't but it wouldn't jar the way it does when people do impossible things. I'd also be assuming westeros was no larger than Wales.

On tv the locations and the map have never really been fleshed out or made real.

The books often explicitly use geography to limit options and give people specific problems to solve. Distances get mentioned often and the westerosi wars in particular feel like they being won on logistics. Dany's challenges moving the unsullied and dothraki get discussed. A lot. Fleets being in the wrong place become a material plot point.

Travel plots in the book have much more weight because they respect the map and explain goals a bit better. Wheras on tv they never really give you a sense that progress is being made, how far anyone has travelled,  or how far they have to go. Arya and the Hound was one of the best travel plots on the show - but it never really felt like they were going anywhere - it was just character scenes reminding you they  were in and around some hills.

Season 1 and 2 were a bit better (hi there, "episodes which paid attention to the source material"). Robb's march, Jamie and Brienne's journey, and Tyrion's mystery tour all felt like they had geography.

I guess its ok that geography is no longer a thing. Just makes it a simpler world. But it also means there is less to write around. Given that the bits the tv writers have had to create have generally been shit - you'd think they'd want more to work with.

[Khaldun]

It does jar me out of the plot when material constraints are said by the characters themselves to be important in what they're deciding to do, when they shape or ought to shape the dramatic situation.

So for example:

1) Cersei hates the Starks and Sansa Stark in particular. She even sent them a note. So why hasn't she just sent troops to sack Winterfell and kill everyone?

A: Because we're told she doesn't have very many troops, she doesn't have enough food, she is short on funds, and Winterfell is a long ways away. So wait, distance and constraints do matter?

2) The Tyrells have an army and have agreed to beseige King's Landing--that was a plot point in Episode 2. So where was that army when Jaime Lannister and Randyll Tarly marched their army on Highgarden, thus solving the no-food and no-funds problem?

A: Oh, who cares, because who doesn't want to see Oleanna Tyrell deliver some great lines and exit the stage? Maybe Jaime just marched way way around the Tyrell army, or met them on the road from Casterly Rock?

3) But wait, how come Euron and Jaime know where all of Danerys' ships and troops are and they don't know where any of the Lannisters or Tarlys or anybody else is?

A: Um, Varys doesn't have any more spies? Or nobody in Dany's forces knows about scouts and intelligence and spies and stuff? (that's almost believable, if you think about how she's operated until now).



The part I don't mind is ok, when Jon Snow decides to go to Dragonstone, he can get there in a hurry, or Oleanna can get back to Highgarden in ten minutes, and all that. That's fine. But the troop stuff matters because it's important to the plot.

[HaemishM]

I think the Tyrell army was traveling with the Dornish army to siege King's Landing, or was traveling to King's Landing to siege it by land. It definitely wasn't meant to be protecting Highgarden because everyone on Dany's side seemed to believe Cersei didn't have enough troops to do anything but protect King's Landing. They also assumed she'd try to hold Casterly Rock instead of abandoning the place to whoever wanted to take it. Cersei was banking on them not using the Dothraki and Unsullied to take King's Landing because of the political aspect of it.

I'm not saying that Cersei suddenly being the greatest strategic thinker left in the game is entirely believable, mind you, just that's how the showrunners are writing it. Euron being fucking everywhere though... yeah I got nothing except magic.

[eldaec]

My only real issue with that episode is that the rock/highgarden section felt like a trailer and once again made me wonder my they are racing to the finish. 

That and fleet teleportation.

I haven't checked but I'm expecting sansa and cersei to have turned in some decent points.

[Shannow]

They have 10 episodes left. They ARE racing to the finish. Glad I'm not a book reader in this regards.

There's a number of reasons you can explain most of this shit. Maybe Euron wasn't with the fleet at Casterly Rock. Again, I'm enjoying the show and not playing map nerd.

[eldaec]

I think the Tyrell army was traveling with the Dornish army to siege King's Landing, or was traveling to King's Landing to siege it by land. It definitely wasn't meant to be protecting Highgarden because everyone on Dany's side seemed to believe Cersei didn't have enough troops to do anything but protect King's Landing.

Also the loyalist army was led by the Tarlys, so I would assume some portion of the Reach was with them. But apparently the whole conflict only warrants a 20 second montage so whatevs.

[eldaec]

They have 10 episodes left. They ARE racing to the finish. Glad I'm not a book reader in this regards.

There's a number of reasons you can explain most of this shit. Maybe Euron wasn't with the fleet at Casterly Rock. Again, I'm enjoying the show and not playing map nerd.

Well yes, but the showrunners made the choice to do it in 10 episodes. That is the decision I find bizarre. 10 episodes is how long it took to start the first war - and then they needed 25 ish episodes to finish it. 

Its not like HBO are demanding this shit get wrapped up and off their precious air.

I can't buy "Euron wasn't at the rock" btw. No way he lets that awesome flagship sail without him, the one where they put sails on their sales and extra rams on their rams. I don't like it, but at least we now have a ruleset - ships can travel anywhere in 1 turn, deal with it.

[Hoax]

They aren't doing enough of a job explaining the military situation not that I disliked the episode but like the entire season it could be much better.

Let's just run down the 7 kingdoms real fast maybe I've forgotten stuff:

North, decimated by the war with the young wolf and the bolton shit. United for now, training everybody for the night king and sitting in their holdfasts preparing for winter/dead.

Iron Islands, split by the kings moot yet somehow turned out two large fleets. One of which is now destroyed with "a few escaping and some captured" per the show. Except is the explanation of Euron's complete victory that he set upon only part of the Yara loyalist fleet while the rest was transporting the unsullied? Doesn't matter now because he fixed that by accomplishing complete naval control in ep3.

Riverlands, a non-factor now. Tully and Fray have both been crushed. The riverlands hosted a lot of the raiding and fighting in the early going and were never a super strong region to begin with. They can be basically written off for the rest of the story. Some lords might be for Stark or for the Crown by default but it shouldn't be enough to swing any major engagement.

Vale, the knights of the Vale are somewhere? Who knows. They don't seem to be hosted at Winterfell but they might be? At this point they should be considered a pretty major power that could definitely change the course of any war just in comparison to everyone else.

West, the Lannister Army has been active. They've fought a lot but mostly done a lot of winning. Some garrison was just sacrificed at The Rock but they are definitely a major military power still. Some of them are attempting to maintain the crown's authority in the Riverlands perhaps? Most are with Jaime or protecting King's Landing.

Reach, welp Highgarden just got sacked. Who was there is mega unclear. How much defection was there with Tarly? How many knights of the reach were in Dorne awaiting pickup? Presumably the death of all the Tyrells (the crippled brother doesn't seem to exist in the show?) creates a major power vacuum and means no matter what anyone who might be inclined to be anti-Lannister/Tarly is also worrying about their own position in the new post-Tyrell order. So let's count them out as well.

Stormlands, I'm going to just say that Stannis' long march and defeat was the end of the Storm Lords as a military power of note.

Dorne, this is one of the toughest calls. Since the killing of their king and prince was such an afterthought we don't even know anything about the political situation in Dorne. Let's assume though that basically everyone rallied to the Sand Snakes and then to the idea of supporting Dany. The armies of Dorne are completely intact but who is leading them and what level of loyalty can be expected is completely unknown. With the Snakes decapitated and the Martells wiped out its possible that Dorne, like the Reach is going to be left too concerned with who will fill that power vacuum to be expected to contest foreign wars.

So its conceivable in 3 episodes the show has gotten us to where the remnants of the north plus the wildlings, Dany's dothraki/unsullied/dragons and the Lannister army plus Tarly and other lords of the Reach siding with him are the only three viable major military powers left besides Littlefinger and the Vale who can play king maker for the 20th time.

[eldaec]

More importantly Theon is now the only named Westerosi character who exists on TV, is still alive, uncaptured, and opposes Cersei in Westeros beyond the North, the Vale, and Dragonstone. I assume that next episode will be written as organised opposition to Cersei being over.

[Threash]

Vale, the knights of the Vale are somewhere? Who knows. They don't seem to be hosted at Winterfell but they might be? At this point they should be considered a pretty major power that could definitely change the course of any war just in comparison to everyone else.

The Vale is with Jon, or Little finger i guess? Bronze Yohn Royce has been featured prominently in all Winterfell scenes.

[Velorath]

They have 10 episodes left. They ARE racing to the finish. Glad I'm not a book reader in this regards.

There's a number of reasons you can explain most of this shit. Maybe Euron wasn't with the fleet at Casterly Rock. Again, I'm enjoying the show and not playing map nerd.

Well yes, but the showrunners made the choice to do it in 10 episodes. That is the decision I find bizarre. 10 episodes is how long it took to start the first war - and then they needed 25 ish episodes to finish it. 

Its not like HBO are demanding this shit get wrapped up and off their precious air.

I can't buy "Euron wasn't at the rock" btw. No way he lets that awesome flagship sail without him, the one where they put sails on their sales and extra rams on their rams. I don't like it, but at least we now have a ruleset - ships can travel anywhere in 1 turn, deal with it.

They're down to a handful of interesting characters left alive. Doing more long travel times and having a bunch of armies moving around the board while the white walkers slowly inch closer would just be a long rehash of seasons 2-6. I can't really fault them for wanting to take Emma Peel and the sand snakes off the board quickly and start moving things along to a climax. It's a little sloppy but I think It's for the best.

[Draegan]

When does Jon learn about his real dad?

Brann is set up to do so.

Does Jon walk up and touch a dragon soon and the dragon doesn't do anything but purr like a kitten and everyone good OH EM GEe??

[Khaldun]

I assume everyone's going to need some kind of proof besides a dude on a sled saying, "You are a Targaryen".

Options:

1) Doesn't burn.
2) Dragons love him.
3) Howland Reed shows up. (But seriously, how could anyone give a fuck about that? No one in the present show knows who he is, as far as we know)
4) Varys or someone other person known to the major characters confirms it.
5) Bran has some kind of magic shit that lets everyone see what he's seen.

[Chimpy]

Honestly, I am watching the show for fantasy league points and to just get the shit over with.

The story in the TV show that is past the books is, if anything, even more ham-handed than Martin's writing in the last 2-3 books. The few parts that were well written in the books have been either discarded or closed out in a quick and uninspiring fashion.

[Hoax]

Bronze Yohn Royce has been featured prominently in all Winterfell scenes.

Ah I'd def lost track of that, thank you.

[lamaros]

I assume everyone's going to need some kind of proof besides a dude on a sled saying, "You are a Targaryen".

Options:

1) Doesn't burn.
2) Dragons love him.
3) Howland Reed shows up. (But seriously, how could anyone give a fuck about that? No one in the present show knows who he is, as far as we know)
4) Varys or someone other person known to the major characters confirms it.
5) Bran has some kind of magic shit that lets everyone see what he's seen.

How at least one person with half a clue hasn't worked out that Jon is who is pretty silly at this point. The whole thing has been silly from halfway through book 2. Eh. I don't even know why I'm posting here, I don't watch the TV show and just want some Fantasy points...

[Merusk]

Imigur comedy summary. 

https://m.imgur.com/a/CrxVK

The smashmouth reference got me for some reason.

[Bunk]

How at least one person with half a clue hasn't worked out that Jon is who is pretty silly at this point. The whole thing has been silly from halfway through book 2. Eh. I don't even know why I'm posting here, I don't watch the TV show and just want some Fantasy points...

You forget (or don't watch to know) that most people south of Winterfell have the opinion of "Jon Snow, who the fuck is that?" He's a bastard son that was sent to the Wall. No one in the south gives a shit who the current High Commander of the Nights Watch is. You think any of them know who Ed is?

Dany didn't even know who the hell Jon was.

[Threash]

Yeah, you'd have to be thinking about Jon to realize who he was and until recently he just Ned's bastard and there was zero reason not to take Ned at his word.

[schild]

Imigur comedy summary. 

https://m.imgur.com/a/CrxVK

The smashmouth reference got me for some reason.

Did this guy do these for every episode?

The Drake joke was positively stellar. Top marks.

[Shannow]

Imigur comedy summary. 

https://m.imgur.com/a/CrxVK

The smashmouth reference got me for some reason.

Im dying. Thats gold.

[schild]

http://chrysreviews.com/index.php/game-of-thrones/

He's done a decent number, but not all of the episodes.

[Merusk]

Yeah, I saw it on Reddit this morning and shared, I hadn't gone looking for others yet. Thanks for finding them, because he's stellar.

[Shannow]

He does Westworld as well 

[eldaec]

Yeah, you'd have to be thinking about Jon to realize who he was and until recently he just Ned's bastard and there was zero reason not to take Ned at his word.

Also I'm not aware of any practical in universe evidence in the current period.

It is all either symbolic allusions to history, dreams, visions, or prophecy.

As to why nobody worked out the knight of the laughing tree and Rhaegar's dalliance at the time, that is tougher.

[lamaros]

There are enough people who were alive when R and L were obviously connected to know that them having a kid was a possibility.

People know of their history. People know that R kidnapped her. People know Ned went to find her.

And in the books particularly Jon's parentage was often depicted as a topic of noble gossip, fuelled by Neds silence on the topic.

Put the two together and you only reason no one might have even considered it is because all the old people are dead. Which they're not.

No of course no one has proof, but that's a different thing alltogether.

[Samwise]

Correctly guessing that Jon's a Targaryen requires you to first discard the premise that he's Ned's son.  Which is a pretty huge leap (because nobody lies about having a bastard unless it's to deny having one), even if a bunch of clever nerds were able to figure it out.  Most people are dumb and most people in Westeros wouldn't have all the information that people reading the books have.

[Merusk]

Yup.

Let's not forget we live in a world where answers are easily summoned but people still believe stupid shit like nobody lived past 40 in the middle-ages, and jumping up and down after sex can prevent pregnancy.

[lamaros]

Correctly guessing that Jon's a Targaryen requires you to first discard the premise that he's Ned's son.  Which is a pretty huge leap (because nobody lies about having a bastard unless it's to deny having one), even if a bunch of clever nerds were able to figure it out.  Most people are dumb and most people in Westeros wouldn't have all the information that people reading the books have.

I really don't think it is. The would have had more information than readers as they would have been alive during the period that R was obsessed with L, and had countless other incidents and court gossip to go off.

That no one would have at the very least speculated about it at some point is based solely on the contention that Ned would never lie and no one would ever pretend to have a bastard son.

Counter to that is that everyone knows Robert would kill any Targaryen kid, that many of the characters are meant to be very clever, have many spies and informants, and spend most of their waking lives wondering about lineages, marriages, unions etc. Anything R ever did with anyone would have been the obsession of half the noble realm.

There is no realistic way that at least a few people didn't put these things together. Readers of the book we're proposing R+L=J long before Martin started spelling it out with his unsubtle dreams and prophecies.

Maybe they've been quiet as Jon has been kept away and hidden and they saw no value or ability to prove the notion, but the idea that Bran is the only one who has any suggestion about it is absurd.

[lamaros]

I mean, literally the reason Ned sends him to the wall is because he doesn't believe he is safe without him there to protect him, and is in no fucking way taking him south where people can go, "oh, who is he again.. oh.. ohhhh".

The entire premise of his thinking is that Jon is not safe anywhere people have cause to think about who he might be, or what they might claim him to be and use him for. Ned didn't think everyone else was so stupid he could fool them on 'oh yeah I got a bastard' alone, and I don't see why we should either.

[Khaldun]

Look, if you're going to argue "back when this was" and forget this a fantasy series, e.g., that you're focused on the Hundred Years' War template set in Western Europe for Westeros and ignoring the different dynastic systems elsewhere in *both* the real world AND in the world of Game of Thrones, then:

a) Fake heirs were an extremely common thing in late medieval and early modern Europe. As were frantic debates about whether someone was a fake heir or not. (Fans of Crusader Kings 2 are familiar in a pretty real way with exactly how this goes).
b) There were people whose heritage was contested their whole damn lives because it was alleged that their parents were not their parents, or vice-versa, that they had a parent they weren't acknowledging.
c) There were actually some cases of dynastic heirs where their heritage was kept secret to protect them for part of their lives, or who were at least sent to fosterage very far away from home and not much discussed until the time came to summon them home.
d) There were cases of exceptionally unlikely successions because everybody with a close claim to a territory died, naturally or in war or under somewhat suspicious circumstances. Not just a movie plot!
e) There were possible heirs who were in fact held prisoner or hidden and likely murdered. The various later popular stories are not entirely made up or wildly out of line with reality.
f) But, and relevant to this, there were people who were fairly obscure that no one really cared about who were sent into holy orders, etc., who in fact eventually got recalled to their families and where there was some suspicion about whether they were who they were said to be.

Most of the templates for stories about dynastic systems that we commonly tell have some basis in reality.

[lamaros]

Look, if you're going to argue "back when this was" and forget this a fantasy series, e.g., that you're focused on the Hundred Years' War template set in Western Europe for Westeros and ignoring the different dynastic systems elsewhere in *both* the real world AND in the world of Game of Thrones, then:

a) Fake heirs were an extremely common thing in late medieval and early modern Europe. As were frantic debates about whether someone was a fake heir or not. (Fans of Crusader Kings 2 are familiar in a pretty real way with exactly how this goes).
b) There were people whose heritage was contested their whole damn lives because it was alleged that their parents were not their parents, or vice-versa, that they had a parent they weren't acknowledging.
c) There were actually some cases of dynastic heirs where their heritage was kept secret to protect them for part of their lives, or who were at least sent to fosterage very far away from home and not much discussed until the time came to summon them home.
d) There were cases of exceptionally unlikely successions because everybody with a close claim to a territory died, naturally or in war or under somewhat suspicious circumstances. Not just a movie plot!
e) There were possible heirs who were in fact held prisoner or hidden and likely murdered. The various later popular stories are not entirely made up or wildly out of line with reality.
f) But, and relevant to this, there were people who were fairly obscure that no one really cared about who were sent into holy orders, etc., who in fact eventually got recalled to their families and where there was some suspicion about whether they were who they were said to be.

Most of the templates for stories about dynastic systems that we commonly tell have some basis in reality.

Absolutely, and by this basis I would suggest that there would be some people in the realm that, knowing of Jon Snow, would have theories or ideas about him that they would either believe or could use to their advantage if others believed, and that him being the son of R & L would be one of those things, and in fact pretty high up the list.

I'm not saying there should be some cabal of people that know Jon is who he is, but that his parentage should be much more contested and wrangled over instead of everyone just accepting that he is Ned's bastard son. Jon is certainly not category F, and has not been but perhaps for a small window in his life after first joining the Night's Watch.

[MediumHigh]

It does jar me out of the plot when material constraints are said by the characters themselves to be important in what they're deciding to do, when they shape or ought to shape the dramatic situation.

So for example:

1) Cersei hates the Starks and Sansa Stark in particular. She even sent them a note. So why hasn't she just sent troops to sack Winterfell and kill everyone?

A: Because we're told she doesn't have very many troops, she doesn't have enough food, she is short on funds, and Winterfell is a long ways away. So wait, distance and constraints do matter?

2) The Tyrells have an army and have agreed to beseige King's Landing--that was a plot point in Episode 2. So where was that army when Jaime Lannister and Randyll Tarly marched their army on Highgarden, thus solving the no-food and no-funds problem?

A: Oh, who cares, because who doesn't want to see Oleanna Tyrell deliver some great lines and exit the stage? Maybe Jaime just marched way way around the Tyrell army, or met them on the road from Casterly Rock?

3) But wait, how come Euron and Jaime know where all of Danerys' ships and troops are and they don't know where any of the Lannisters or Tarlys or anybody else is?

A: Um, Varys doesn't have any more spies? Or nobody in Dany's forces knows about scouts and intelligence and spies and stuff? (that's almost believable, if you think about how she's operated until now).



The part I don't mind is ok, when Jon Snow decides to go to Dragonstone, he can get there in a hurry, or Oleanna can get back to Highgarden in ten minutes, and all that. That's fine. But the troop stuff matters because it's important to the plot.

Cracks knuckles

A lot of these constraints are explain in the book, which makes it odd when the show parrots it despite internally people just teleport.

For example.

1. Cersei can't march a lannister army up north because cost wise they'll never get past the Neck.
2. The Tyrell doesn't have a huge army. The Reach has a huge army. The Tyrells don't have 100,000+ soldiers camping outside highgarden (even though they should being in open rebellion and all).
3. Dragonstone and Kinglanding and Dorne are not that far from each other. In fact Euron capture of the dornish bitches makes sense because, assuming Euron fleet is at blackwater, intercepting a convoy that passes king landings on the way to dorne is easy. Predicting that tyrion lannister would capture castle rock is also not particularly hard especially when the other side is Jaime (who knows how his brother thinks). Euron fleet being right behind unsullied is a big stretch, but not particularly impossible, Euron could have sent his fleet toward castle rock, trailing after Dany''s fleet with a little insight from Jaime Lannistar. However the sense of time is extremely disjointed in this show as a trip to castle rock should take several days not a few hours.  also when would jaime have time to send Euron marching orders despite "just now" winning some confidence is also questionable.