f13.net

I have no problem with a mod nuking this thread if they deem so, but I figured a general discussion about this might help others too.

I'm not one who drinks a lot.  An occasional beer when dining out, a rum and coke every now and then, nothing too extreme.

Last Friday, I did a bit of over drinking...mixed together rum, vodka and tequila a little too much.  Woke up Saturday with a hangover, typical stuff, right?

Problem I'm having now is that it's Wednesday, and I'm still having that fuzzy/disconnected from reality feeling.  Like I just can't get a grip on what's going on around me.  I don't have a headache, everything else physically is fine as far as I can tell, but I'm foggy-headed and I feel like I'm loosing it.  I'm trying to stay hydrated, I've had no alcohol since Friday, but even driving to work I feel somewhat intoxicated.  I made an appointment with my doctor for this Friday, as I just don't feel right.

Any thoughts on what I may have done or what else I could do to remedy?

Yeah... I got nothing. Your liver should have filtered everything out by no later than Sunday. Sounds like something else is going on that perhaps a binge evening unleashed. Just relax though, it's not Lupus.

My thoughts go to hydration, blood sugar, and vitamin deficiency.

What have you been eating or drinking in the last few days? Are you overweight? Do you smoke?

Eating: Pasta, beef, cinnamon roll, pizza
Weight: Overweight yes, but not obese
Smoke: No.

I have been taking a One-A-Day vitamin since Sunday, and even a 5-hour energy or two.

Did you maybe bump your head?  You could have BPPV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benign_paroxysmal_positional_vertigo).  Between that and an ear infection I lost over a month this summer.  It took me a week to realize I wasn't fuzzy so much as suffering vertigo.  It very much felt like I had been heavily drinking.  Not moving my head was the only way I felt 'alright'.  Driving seriously aggravated it.

Also, never mix your liquors.

How much sleep are you getting on top of all this.  If you're chugging 5-hour energies I'm guessing it's not enough to begin with.   

Also, from personal experience with using them once in a while they advertise there's no sugar crash, but they always left me feeling "off" unless I'd taken at least 7-8 hours of sleep the night after I'd used them.

Keep taking the vitamin. Go eat a banana for the potassium, grab some gatorade and drink that along with water. Do NOT drink any caffeine until you feel better. Water and Gatorade to fully rehydrate until you find yourself urinating enough that you go, man I'm peeing a lot today. My guess is that you are also not sleeping enough and could be slightly exhausted and/or dehydrated.

Pedlialyte from the baby section of the supermarket is supposed to be even better than gatoraid.

Eat some veggies.

I somewhat doubt the vertigo thing...I don't recall falling or hitting my head, nor do I feel dizzy or feel weird when I tilt/turn my head.  But it is an interesting insight.

I will redouble my water/gatorade intake.  Will try and get some more sleep as well, which will probably upset the wife, but I need a remedy at this point.  Thanks for the advice thus far, gang.

My other advice would be to take a B vitamin supplement with B12. Helps with nervous system and brain function.

I'm with the rest.

1) Hydration

2) ion balance (Na, K, Ca, Mg).  A multivitamin should do it.

3) Take a B complex (or a 5 hour energy shot, B vitamins + caffeine)

4) Avoid gatorade.  It's crap for rehydration (too much sugar, too little sodium).  Use pedialyte or the recipe below (copy/pasted from my lecture slides)

In an emergency situation where a pre-formulated solution is unavailable you can use this for oral rehydration.  It tastes like shit though.
1/2 teaspoon salt
1/2 teaspoon baking soda
3 tablespoons sugar
1 liter (about 1 quart) of safe drinking water
Measure accurately! incorrect amounts can make the solution less effective or even harmful. Have someone check your measurements for accuracy.
 

 :grin:

A quart is a large quantity.  Human error there means less than on the solids  :grin:

its relative error all around Nebu. If you measure accurately 1 quart you're about 5% under on all your other ingredients (Measure accurately!) which seems like it would be a lot harder to do with a decent set of measuring cups and a knife.

Also, you are recommending caffeine and then suggesting that gatorade isn't good enough for hydration because it has a tad too much sugar. Which just boggles the mind. Caffeine is a diarrhetic. I.E. it makes you piss free water. If you want to hydrate its the last thing you want to be drinking for two reasons. First it will do the opposite effect and make you less hydrated, second it will make you piss more and that will make you think that you are more hydrated than you thought.

Also, if you had bothered to check, the "recovery" gatorade (I.E. the rehydrate stuff, and not the "you need sugar so you can run" stuff) has about 105 calories of sugar for a litre of drink (rest is in protein). Your drink has 145. The Gatorade has, in fact, the exact same amount of sugar as regular pedialyte. (half the sodium though, so at least you're right on that front).

Seriously, gatorade is fine, sugar is fine and won't dehydrate you unless you're a child. The excess will make you fatter, but a few thousand calories of extra carbs in a week(as a one off for recovery from being sick) is not going to be the end of the world and you'll probably burn it off via increased energy anyway. Excess sugar does not have the same effect on adults as it does on children, avoiding it for dehydration is not necessary(this information taken from the pedialyte website discussing how to rehydrate yourself).

P.S.
Per Litre info for pedialyte (recommended by experts!)

105 calories of sugar, 1059mg of sodium = 1 to 1

Per Litre info for you concoction (recommended by fucking Nebu)

145 calories of sugar, 1700mg of sodium = < 1 to 1 (which as an adult with extra tolerances to sugar compared to children seems like it would be best to go the other way on the balance)

So what I am saying is drink gatorade or pedialyte and you'll be fine.

WTF now you're a medical expert? That dual Finance-MD degree must be a bitch on free time.

Drink everything you drank in reverse order to see if it fixes it.  Or be boring and wait to see what the doctor says.

Ya, go with some hair of the dog. Always works for me, but then again I'm probably an alcoholic.

I've never suffered from a sustained hangover. Usually the physical effects last for a day or two at the most.

If you can exclude the fact that you physically hurt yourself while intoxicated then I find it unusual that the after effects last that long.

If the (great) suggestions of the other posters don't help.

Do you take any medication that might interact with alcohol.

and the not so obvious question when you are a guy:

Are you certain that nobody else had access to your drinks? The only time I've seen "hang-over" effects that lasted that long was when somebody (gladly unsuccessfully) tried to roofie my sister at a party. (She was with enough of her friends so that she was never alone but she was completely out while still being able to walk)

Spiking drinks is a great way to steal from you.

Since my last post I've down 24oz of Gatorade, plus 3x that amount in water.  I'm starting to feel a little better...a good night sleep would probably work better at this point. 

No, no one spiked my drink.  Was drinking with the Mrs, who hardly had any at all due to her distaste for Tequila.  I still love her though.  I went to bed Friday night, and woke up six hours later in the bathroom on the floor with a blanket and pillow.  This, after I apparently threw up as well.

Sleep 10 hours.

I always chug a bunch of water and then immediately get some food in me.  Usually chinese buffet or the biggest, nastiest, greasiest bacon cheeseburger with a huge order of fries (and probably a beer).  But I rarely drink anymore so the hangovers rarely hit me.  But oh boy when they do?  I feel like somebody ran over me with a truck.

You're right.  I'd rather just list everything in grams and mLs, but the US doesn't believe in either global warming or the metric system.  I was just trying to throw something quick in the thread before giving a biochem lecture.

My personal fav was always IV Ringer's and a B shot in the ass. 

NORML should get behind this as a marketing tool. Every pothead knows how many grams are in an ounce.

Sounds like a helluva hangover.   :grin:

I would recommend an IV.  That works wonders. 

And for fucks sake, drop the damn 5 hour energy crap!

I don't know why this works but it does for me too.  My old favorite was scrambled eggs with chicken livers, fried potatoes (hash browns or homefries), and a berry milkshake.  (Bacon works too if chicken livers aren't your thing).

And sleep until the headache's gone - even if it means sleeping all day around.  

Water, fat and sleep.  I don't know which part of it works best, but all in combination works great.

listen to Nebu

and have a tepid bath.  Absorb moar.

I always try to drink a ton of water before going to bed when drunk.  It does wonders for me, though I have to wake up a few times to piss it all out in the night.

Next day, fruit juice for the first few hours, with a hearty breakfast.  If you don't have a lot going on, try a touch of Malibu in an orange/grapefruit juice mix.  Steadily drink those, adding a little more Malibu in each glass.  It's called Mom's cure, and Mom is a lady who owns/owned a hole in the wall bar in the French Quarter, NO.  She took pity on me one morning and set me right.  Took a few hours, but it worked.

Also, caffeine is bad, but sometimes one or two Excedrin work wonders on a hangover.

No, but I am able to do basic research on things which are public record. Which this is.

Yep, glad you're arguing with the biochemist in the forum. That'll go well.

He's a full of shit college student.  I think I know who I'll pay attention to when it comes to these issues.   :awesome_for_real:

I've had multiday hangovers twice; both of them involved multiday sustained drinking binges and one of them involved Schild.

In both cases, time and rest got me shipshape within two or three days, while eating decently and drinking plenty of juice and water. A little tea might help too.

These days I don't drink enough to do the multiday hangover thing, although once or twice a year I'll still get "write off the day" hungover. In those cases, the cure is always water, bedrest, repeat until you can sit up straight and eat.

If the biochemist wants to be a nutritionist and is going to give out information it can at least be accurate. We aren't arguing about biochemistry, we're arguing about how much salt and sugar are in gatorade and pedialyte. And yes, I am going to take their word for it(and pedialytes word on what nutritionists recommend for re-hydration) over a biochemist on this forum.

It's a shame that Nebu is just a lowly biochemistry professor and not actually a doctor or anything, then we'd all know for sure that you're talking out of your ass.

Oh, wait.   :awesome_for_real:

ETA: To add something useful, and to thank everyone for reminding me to take my damned vitamin.  Last year I was having some pretty bad fatigue issues, and one of the things my doctor recommended was vitamins from these folks: http://www.coopercomplete.com/ (http://www.coopercomplete.com/).  They seem to help more than the basic one-a-day ones if I remember to actually take them every day.  I take the iron-free flavor, as I've got an odd blood condition that can sometimes cause a slight anemia (that I don't suffer from, last few blood tests at least).  I can't remember why it was he wanted me to /not/ take iron, which was the opposite of what I had been told previously.  Whatever, they work.

Whole Foods carries them locally, but I don't know if they do nationally or not - the Cooper Clinic is in Dallas so it may just be local.

Derail: Hey Nebu, if you've got time to check out their website, IS there actually any difference between these and the normal cheap vitamins at wal-mart?

He was right.  I threw something down quickly in an effort to help.   I should have just stayed with the pedialyte recommendation and left out the homemade stuff. 

I'll be more thorough in the future.  


Nerf: I'll look into it when I get a minute and PM you what I find out.

Enthusiast.

Only really been hungover twice in my life, but they were doozies:

1st time was after a night of basically straight tequila (most of a bottle to myself). I later realized that it was actually a problem that the tequila was eventually indistinguishable from water to me.  :oh_i_see: That stunt put me in the hospital for a day with extreme dehydration - two or three IV bags and something to calm my stomach eventually did the trick.

2nd time was years later. Earlier this year on St Pat's day, a bunch of us went out and I was drinking heavily...which isn't normally a problem. Unfortunately, someone slipped me a shot of tequila that I thought was just terrible rail vodka...whoops. I was vomiting for the better part of the next day into the late afternoon. This one I just dealt with by forcing gatorade until I could keep it down.

I managed to put down about 14 beers in a row at a brewfest in my college days outdoors in Georgia July heat over the course of 4 hours while drinking no water at all.

I was hung over for about 3 days. The first day I just slept and couldn't move. The second day I was able to eat applesauce and crackers. The third day I rose from the dead.

Vertigo sucks. I've been getting recurring vertigo for the last year or so that lasts ~10 days and then goes away for a couple months. It's amazing how large of an effect your sense of balance can have on the rest of your body. You can google search 'epley maneuver' for a quick exercise that might knock your inner-ear back in balance if this were the case.

It sounds like luckton legitimately just has a serious hang-over. The best advice is pro-active water (or gatorade/pedialyte) consumption before you go to sleep, or preferably while you are drinking even.

Hair of the dog is also a valid option in conjunction with water... it doesn't take much. Lately if I wake up with a hangover after a night of drinking, I try to stay hydrated and I usually have a small drink as well. Half a beer is enough to make me feel normal again, and then I can just let my body do the rest of the work re-hydrating itself.

With things like energy drinks and isotonic drinks (Gatorade etc), remember that they are a recent invention and human beings performed just fine throughout history without them. They are never the best solution to a problem. Tens of thousands of kilometres on bicycles taught me that there is nothing better than H2O and a balanced diet.

The only times I use isotonic drinks are when I'm cycling very long distances, to minimise the chance of leg muscle cramps. Even then, I ride with one bottle of water, one bottle of isotonic drink, and sip from each. I also experienced in the Australian desert, travelling in 47 degrees C, that powerade/gatorade should not be regarded as something you can drink instead of water, even if all you have is foul-tasting bore water.

I would've thought that you'd need to replace your salts when biking over a long period of time, or when walking in a high heat, not just replace the water itself.

I don't know how far you're talking about when you say "very long distance" nor wether you mean a race or a gentle sightseeing tour. But I'll just throw this link into the mix from a recent discussion I had about hydration, overhydration, electrolyte imbalances, hyponatremia etc http://www.ultracycling.com/nutrition/drinking_too_much.html (http://www.ultracycling.com/nutrition/drinking_too_much.html) All a digression though - I don't think it's relevant here.

My two cents worth, not-a-doctor-but-most-definitely-a-drinker opinion on Luckton's issue is that alcohol could quite possibly be a red herring and that you may have picked up a virus or something. If you didn't drink yourself unconscious on the Friday then I'd be quite surprised that you were still feeling that shit a few days later just because of a hangover. Go see a doctor.

You could have hearing loss in an ear. I have some in one of mine and it flared up again years after the event and mDe me dizzy and nauseous. It comes back sometimes when I don't sleep enough and drink too much.

I'm betting on something with the vestibular system.  Hopefully they figure it out tomorrow.

The worst hangover I've ever had was after some tequila that we'd brought back from Mexico.  I think it lasted for a week. 

If you are a person that has trouble with nausea after drinking dramamine seems to really help me a lot.  It makes me sleepy as hell but no more feeling sick.  I typically don't get headaches, but then again I haven't had a bad hangover in years, so it may be different for me now.

I solved hangovers completely. I know my limits and stay within them  :grin:

I do, too, until there's a cute girl involved.  Then all bets are off.

I'm feeling better today...still hydrating like a fish.  Will keep my appointment for tomorrow and have them check me out just to be sure.  I picked up a B Complex vitamin and a B12 liquid vitamin at the CVS last night...it was all BOGO free  :grin:

Thanks again all for the advice.

Oh look, it's hyponatremia. Always quoted back at me whenever I write common sense about consuming water.

I just want to build on 2 things that were said already:

B Complex:  changed my life.  Fatigue issues eliminated.  Of course everyone is different but if it works, it's so much better for you than the 5 hour energy.  I have a feeling that in a few years we'll find out that shit causes black holes.

Veggies:  I found a fun and tasty way to increase the veggie intake.  Not being a salad guy, or even really a veggie guy, I had a chopped salad at an Italian restaurant once and since then I've been chopping my own salads.  Sounds simple, but for me the entire aesthetic changes.  One can eat massive amounts of salad and it's all good.  Add a little vinaigrette and olive oil, and whatever you want really (except cinnamon rolls).  Use spinach and different kinds of greens.  Fun times.

Little things will help in the long run, especially later in life (cough)

So you think your common sense about water applies 100% of the time? Forgive me if I choose to ignore you on certain occasions.

There are different types of dehydration that occur with different circumstances and probabilities.  I didn't come to appreciate that myself until I had worked in a clinic.  I also don't mind people being critical of my suggestions.  I like it when I am questioned.  It keeps me thinking. 

Pffft, your such a scientist with your scientifical methods.

I object!

This is in no way significant.

That's just a theory.

My four-year-old likes to inform me, "Dad, I have a hypothesis."

"Humans got by for X thousands of years on just <substance Y> and did fine!" is always kind of an iffy argument to make. Humans also had a life expectancy under 30 years for most of that time, after all.

I, for one, thank Gatorade every day for extending our life expectancy.

Bust out his Tinker Toys and tell him you have a hypotenuse  :grin:


It probably preserves our corpses at least!

I'll add more substance to my earlier snark. If anything, what we have been eating and drinking for the last 100 years has been lowering our life expectancy, not helping it.

The last 100 years, in the US, maybe. The last 10,000? Not so much, and in any case we're still learning more about nutrition every year. The idea that we just need to return to our caveman diets or whatever (where these sorts of statements often crop up) is just wistful pastoralism, for the most part, not science.

My point, obviously, is not anything specific about Gatorade.

Maybe I'm just a luddite when it comes to food but it just seems food science/nutrition always comes up short. So many modern diseases and just obesity in general can be tracked down to the food that we eat at the same time we are supposedly learning so much more about nutrition. (Large scale) nutrionists and food science exists, in my opinion, not to actually make us healthier but to sell and market the wonder food/vitamin to us.

It's got electrolytes! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Vw2CrY9Igs 

Um, you're talking about WATER. The thing that you consist mostly of.

Nutritionists aren't the ones making, selling and marketing the food. There is a huge disconnect between what we know is healthy (scientifically speaking) and what we eat, for a variety of reasons mostly related to money.


What were you loosing? Some sort of wild beast?  :grin:

Judging by this thread, yes.

Hangover may be caused by any combination of dehydration, toxicity from alcohol metabolites, your body over correcting stimulant hormone production, toxicity from shit that dissolves in alcohol, hypoglecemia, and withdrawal symptoms.

Basically everything that's been suggested works to some extent some of the time.  Even the hair of the dog that bit you will alleviate the last two or three.

No he wasnt. While caffeine has a diuretic effect the effect is generally so small that when drinking a normal American cup of drip coffee, the water you imbibe with the coffee offset by the caffeine's diuretic effect is still a net positive.

Luckton' as for your multiday hangover its simple, welcome to getting older.

This thread has inspired me to add Vitamin B Complex into my morning routine - started Friday.  I could use more energy.

Have a physical on Tuesday. Wouldn't be surprised if, among other things, my blood comes back as being low in Iron and other assorted vitamins. Also the blood pressure is a bit elevated, but that's probably due to stress and lack of exercise.

You know what's better than vitamin B pills?
Marmite sandwiches.  :awesome_for_real:

My blood pressure averaged about 140 last Christmas. My grandfather had bypass surgery at 52 and my uncle at 43 so it's something I really need to watch. It was 129 the other day so at least I'm bringing it down a ltitle just by eating better.

My systolic and pulse rate are fine - it's just that, for whatever reason my diastolic is elevated. It's a bit disconcerting because I'm not sure what that really means.

My correct impression as a layman: the pump is fine, but the pipes are getting clogged.  Finish your day with a beer. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-density_lipoprotein#Ways_to_increase_HDL_levels.5Bvague.5D)

He was correct about my measurements being rough.  I explained that it's because of our archaic use of the British system. 

Caffeine I'm happy to debate.  It has many pharmaceutical roles that may outweigh the minimal diuretic effects. 

While this may just be an immediate effect caused by a number of different factors, I'd advise you to see a cardiologist.  While systolic pressure is commonly linked to hypertension, high diastolic pressure in those under 40 can be a predictor of future trouble. 

Yeah wish you had been with me during my recent hospital stay! The nurses were convinced caffeine was the devils's drink and that the multiple symtoms i was presenting must surely be due to something other than caffeine withdrawl.  :awesome_for_real:

Is introducing Complex Vitamin B into ones daily routine supposed to lead to vivid dreams?

Since I started it into my morning diet I swear I have been having the most gnarly dreams!  I am also sleeping better then I have in years.

Bad news: pressure was still elevated today (some of that might have been nerves).
Good news: the ensuing ECG came out clean and normal, so there's that.

I guess I get to try (for real this time) to manage my diet more closely and actually exercise. I guess two years of intermittent garbage food, an almost total lack of exercise, and higher general stress will do that.  :oh_i_see:

A lot of it can probably be attributed directly to my penchant to want to nibble on stuff when I'm home nights/weekends, so I guess that's out now.

Carrots, radishes, celery, and nuts are your best friends. 

I snack a lot.  I just try to keep a lot of fresh veggies around.  That and drink more water.  It reduces the cravings.

Unfortunately...I'm still a picky eater (though much better than I was as a kid). I hate me some salad, with a passion. Fresh vegetables have just never worked for me for the most part, same for fruit. Sometimes it's taste, sometimes it's texture, to the point where it just sort of makes me gag or unable to get it down. Buying mixed frozen veggies from the store was actually a pretty big shift, and mostly works for me, and goes well with my usual pasta dinners.

Also, I don't have the luxury of eating whenever I want, since I'm in language class for (usually) about 5 hours a day.

I try to take a banana each morning for breakfast. I suppose I could swap the junk for clementines or something. Maybe take another pass at some things (not sure what) and see if my tastes have evolved - I actually accidentally bought a pot pie that had broccoli in it, and it was disgusting.  :oh_i_see:

Are you certain you haven't got some packets of vitamin B and valium confused?  :awesome_for_real:

My biggest beef (PUN PUN PUN!!) with fruits and veggies is they go bad so god damn fast. Somedays I am just not up for eating that tomato/peach/carrot... next day, mold or rot.

Carrots don't set off my texture issues.  Though whether I finish a full bag or not is random.  Same with grapes.  There was a lot of stuff I used to not like, but started making stir-fry, and it grew on me.

The trick is to finding a few you like and trying to rotate between them or combine them into dishes where they work together.  Nuts have a lot of different flavors, so they're worth sampling.

Try freezing fruits if it's ever a texture thing. I eat tons of frozen grapes, pineapple and blueberries.

I was also being a dick, and should not have been. So my apologies.

Nuts are fine. I actually like nuts...but I'm terrible when it comes to food and moderation.

As for fruit...I'm really inconsistent. I love me some pineapple and coconut...but when the heck am I supposed to do with them? Just go to the store and buy a pineapple, and somehow chop it up at home? I don't even know how I would store or prepare it.

Though, I think this idea of freezing grapes has merit - do they come sans seeds? I HATE seeds...which is why I don't particularly like blueberries or strawberries (though I like the taste  :cry:).

Yea, you can get white seedless grapes. I don't know if they are technically seedless more so that the seeds are not mature so they don't count. Seeds don't bother me except for fresh raspberries. Fuck raspberries.

I was actually mad the first time I froze grapes that no one had told me about it.

I am going to have to try that (i fucking love me some grapes) since frozen is the only way i can eat blueberries.

So, silly question but...how are they when you eat them frozen - am I going to chip a tooth or something?

Some of you people are strange as hell. Just man or woman up and eat shit that's good for you. It is super easy.

If you keep your freezer super cold they might be too solid but grapes generally don't freeze completely, it turns the inside into more of a slush.

Hey dude, taste buds are what they are.

Frozen grapes are kinda like frozen banana, the texture is sorbet-ish. And delicious.

Frozen watermelon is also great, though in an icypole kinda way.

I was never allowed sugar as a kid, I know all about every type of frozen fruit...

I think his point and mine are it seems strange some of you have reached adulthood and are able to figure out how to operate in a modern world but the concept of seedless grapes is foreign to you and how to store chopped up pineapple (tupperware) is like the riddle of the sphynx.

Just basic shit seen in any basic grocery store in the modern world.

People like what they like.  What's the point of giving him shit about it?

I have zero desire to cook, which I'm sure figures a lot into this - my patience for cooking pretty much extends to boiling and microwaving. I didn't eat fruit really growing up as a kid, so yeah, a lot of that stuff is completely foreign, such as seedless grapes or how the heck you even go about cutting up a bigass pineapple (like, do I even own a big-enough knife for it). I've just never had a reason to know.

Tastes are mostly acquired.  They also change as you get older and your senses alter.

I have quite a bit of sympathy with picky eaters.  I was one when I was a kid, and one of my kids is one.  It's not really just about how a person is raised (my folks had 3 non-pickys and then me).

I haven't felt like throwing up after putting something in my mouth in decades, but I will never forget what a drag that is. 

Picky eaters usually grow out of it.  But it's not like people want to be that way or train themselves out of it.

Dumplings.   :ye_gods:

Steamed dumplings with Sriracha are fantastic.

Mushy foods are my bane. :x

Gagging for me is more dependent upon texture than taste, but I find a lot of things simply inedible that others love.

Dumplings?!  :ye_gods:

Delicious!

I'm glad it isn't just me.  I can't do things like mushrooms, olives, bananas, etc because of their texture.  I practically want to toss it when coming into contact with them.  Everyone says I'm just strange =P

Mashed potatoes and squash are my two worst ones, with overcooked veggies running close behind.  Fresh mushrooms and veggies are usually firm enough for me.  But I totally get it.

I used to have the worst problem with anything meaty unless it was processed meat, it just turned into chewing gum in my mouth and just made me throw up after a few minutes of chewing. Thankfully that's gone away the last 10 years, with only the absolute worst of rubbery meats eliciting that kind of reaction.

It's not fun, especially if you've got to explain it to someone who doesn't have any gag-reflexes at all.

Creamed corn. Just thinking about it makes me want to gag.

I was a horrible picky eater when I was a kid and my father was the type who felt he had to be a hardass and force me to eat my vegetables. I have few pleasant memories of family dinners.

To be fair, I eat dumplings at Asian restaurants.  The ones I was referring to were my grandmother's - a meatball wrapped in a piece of bread.

Soggy bread =  :uhrr:

This is essentially my perfect weekend.

Barbarian.

I get that sometimes too, but usually when the meat is way over-cooked. I get this a lot with flank steak, which I cannot eat if it's not properly marinated and rare.

Watch nuts. Very densely-packed with calories, and you should stick with lower-fat nuts. Hit the almonds, not the cashews. Emerald has an almond baked with cocoa powder that's great. I also snack constantly, could up my veggie snacking a bit but I eat a lot of fruit. Love this time of year, so many good, fresh, local apples. Fresh corn about a mile up the road at a farm stand. Hell, just a couple plants in planters made my summer better (tomatoes and basil).

I think we've gone down this conversational fork in the workout thread :)Love a bowl of frozen grapes and a book by the fire or out on the patio on a sunny day.

I was a picky eater when I was a kid, I couldn't even eat our home-made pizza because it had too many veggies! Now, I love discovering "new" foods. I just had a fucking peach for the first time a couple weeks ago! I've also found I feel a lot better after pounding down a pound of trout than a pound of beef rib steak. I still love beef, but there are so many other great animal proteins out there that it just naturally turned into a once every couple weeks thing, to make room for the others in our menu.

Keep in mind that both corn and peas are carbs and not veggies. 

That doesn't stop corn on the grill from being awesome  :grin:

Well shit. I did not know that. For 37 years they've been on the vegetable list of everything I've seen.

So then, what are veggies as everything these days is "no, not really."  Just leafy greens? "Eat your veggies" should be relabeled to "eat lettuce and spinach?"

Then you start getting into vegetables that botanically are actually fruits. I prefer to just say "eat your plants" and be done with it.

Corn and peas taste good because they're loaded with carbs.  I consider something a veggie if it has a high fiber/digestible carb ratio. 

Example: A small ear of corn has about 70 Cal.  An equal amount of celery or cucumber would be about 5 Cal. 

It's still fewer Cal than a potato, pasta, or rice and does contain some fiber.  I just consider corn to fulfill a carb role due to its relatively low nutrient value.

Hope that helps.

If you hate the texture try juicing your fruits and veggies.

Try watching http://www.fatsickandnearlydead.com/ (http://www.fatsickandnearlydead.com/).

Ketchup.

Imma beat you with this Elephant trunk I just found.

When you say peas, are you talking like green peas or is it an Americanism for something else? Because yeah, peas have a lot more carbs relatively than, say, spinach but it's loaded with nutrients.

That post prompted my fiancee to tell me that my beloved green beans are just fiber and water  :grin: Then that corn is a 2, peas are a 1 (peas I'm assuming the american peas out of pod), and green beans are freeeee.

The devil is 6 and god is 7?

Sorry, weight watchers system. Pretty interesting and it mostly works out, though it can be odd in some instances.

Oh good.  I've always had a thing for fresh green beans, lima beans and peas.  Corn seems to be everyone's favorite but it's just a once in a while thing for me... and even then I only enjoy it on the cob.

So what are Lima Beans, Sky?

What about steam soy beans, still in the pod (but not eating the pod, blech)?

If it has 'bean' in the name, no, it isn't a 'vegetable' nutritionally for the most part, except for green beans.

Beans *are* extremely good for you though. Very high in protein and fiber, not all that many carbs compared to their weight, very low fat, etc. Pretty much essential if you're going to go vegetarian, given the amino acids you'll be missing from meat.

Other tip... Replace all meat with Turkey, chicken or lean pork.

I've been on the http://www.the17daydiet.com/ (http://www.the17daydiet.com/) for a couple months. Lost like 20 lbs when I first started. Been cheating a lot lately, but I'm maintaining and feeling like I have a lot more energy.  I should just go back to phase 1 and lose another 20 and be in a healthy place.

Lean pork?  Is there such a thing?  The only lean red meat I can think of is bison. 

Pork tenderloin, for one. I think it is 4% fat or so.

Don't forget fish! I'm still a bit hesitant in my explorations under the sea, but I grew up on fresh trout and can get a pretty decent (albeit fatty) slab o steelhead trout from the local fish shop. But I haven't ventured beyond the basics: shrimp, cod, halibut, salmon, scallops. I did have some mussels or similar bivalve at the good local restaurant and really liked them as well.

Venison.

I should mention ostrich too, it tastes fantastic and is very healthy stuff.

Nutria?  Not sure how healthy it actually is.

I know Cajuns that eat them. Then again, they will eat anything that moves if you have the right hot sauce.

Pretty much, yeah.

Yeah.. why not stick to the meats you can easily get in the Midwest when offering suggestions.   That means pork, chicken and beef.  Even finding ground turkey can be a chore where I'm at.  (Though If I'm willing to spend almost a quarter tank of gas to drive to the north end of town I can find it easily as that's where the more progressive folks are holed-up.)

You can get Bison in most grocery stores now, at least ground. Getting Bison steaks is a little more difficult. Company is in your neck of the woods, KyBison.
Its definitely more expensive than beef, but we have switched entirely to bison and dropped beef from our diet and have noticed a difference.

Love me some venison as well. But I dont hunt, so only get it when a buddy of mine goes hunting.

I'll take another look 'round the grocery today when I go.  Maybe it's just nestled in amongst the beef but I'm pretty sure neither Kroger nor Meijer carry Bison locally.  I could drive out to Jungle Jim's but that's literally an hour-long drive and not worth it for ground meat.

Bison is awesome if you are careful about cooking it.  If you cook ground beyond medium or steaks beyond medium rare it gets really gamey-tasting, and there is a real fine line there (I think it's because since it is so low in fat, there is not much of an error margin).

But once you get the hang of it it tastes pretty much exactly like beef and is much better for you.

I would argue Bison actually HAS a taste, versus corporate produced beef which does not.

Not that I want to let facts get in the way but:

Sirloin steak from Bison - 6g of fat per 100g (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/lamb-veal-and-game-products/4801/2)
Sirloin steak from Cow - 6g of fat per 100g (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/beef-products/3589/2)

(That's figures for seperable lean meat, obviously - i.e. after trimming the fat from the steak)

I think there's a wider variety in beef. 

Complex Vitamin E has changed my life.

Switched from a B vitamin to an E?

What is complex vitamin E?  I'm dead serious in asking.

if this is becoming the vitamin thread, I'm a huge fan of SAM-E

Sonufabitch.  Meant B.  Seriously, this really has made a huge difference in my life.

Long story short - by 1pmish I would feel so damned fatigued it took intense amounts of willpower to stay focused and communicate effectively. 

Gone.  Another side effect is I am sleeping better then ever.  Vivid dreams have toned down in last week, but the feeling of a refreshing 6-7 hours sleep is so freaking nice its eerie.  Also, I used to wake up at 2pm like clockwork.  No longer, I sleep through the night now.

B complex is a wonderful thing.  B vitamins are vital for so many key metabolic processes and RBC production and maturation. 

Glad that you're doing better!

Sanddabs are probably my favorite fish.  They're a type of flounder, very delicate.  (Don't want to cook them long at all - dip in flour (little salt/pepper in there), then panfry a minute or two (depending on size) on one side, no more than a minute on the other).  These can generally be found from the Sea of Japan to northern California so I'm not sure where else one can buy them. 

If you have a good fishmonger nearby, you can ask what's good today and how to cook it.

I don't like beef much.  Grew up eating chili con carne and hamburger, and just don't like the taste of beef.  I do like a good ribeye about once a month.  Can take or leave anything else, like sirloin or flank steak or tritip or whatever.  Pork is ok (not counting bacon - bacon is fantastic).  I love poultry and fish though.  (Duck and goose are particular favorites but not cheap nor easy to come by).

Peas are vegetables! So they might be high calorie vegetables. If I have to eat celery instead, bah, no thanks, I'd rather take the caloric hit on peas.

Lately I like roasting vegetables (except peas).  Carrots, onions, garlic, broccoli, squash even summer squash.  Light toss in good olive oil (domestic, not imported, if you want real virgin olive oil - the imported is likely not virgin), salt/pepper, roast for 15-20 minutes on a foil covered cookie sheet at 425.

Oh and those diets designed to help people live forever?  Fuck that.  Have you been to a nursing home lately?  If I make it to 80, I'm going to buy a carton of Camel filters, and a case of Sierra Nevada Pale ale, and smoke and drink beer to my heart's content.  I don't want to do what my mother-in-law is doing, which is to have a very healthy body and no mind left at all.  Better for a quick death at 75 than a slow one beyond 88.

My mom just gave me her old meat grinders (they're heavy metal manual things).  I bet you can find one at a goodwill or antique or junk store.  And grind your own turkey.

Probs shouldn't eat soy beans straight. Not especially good for you.

Nor good for others.

Er, what?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edamame

Soy beans have lots of phytoestrogens compared to other foods, and should best be consumed in a fermented product (tofu, japanese soy sauce) or heavily soaked and cooked (quality, non-isolate, soy milks) as they have traditionally have been.

Edamame are young soy beans and as far as I know have the same health concerns.

Or at least this was the knowledge of the topic last time I looked.

Raw = bad, cooked = better, heavily cooked/fermented = best.

And?

And how many people you know come home and trim the excess fat from a beef steak before cooking it? Because I don't know of anyone who does, most people I know eat the fat.
So I would argue that the cut of bison is inherently leaner since it doesn't have that extra surrounding fat rim.

I do!  I also prefer 93/7 ground beef.

Reducing calories is where I (and I would argue most people) can make the healthiest dietary changes, and bison is much less than beef for a given steak.  As was already pointed out, the beef cuts usually have more fat on 'em, but even in this both stripped-down-lean example, the bison is 7% less.  In practice when you include the cow fat the difference is much more drastic.

Of course you can eat chicken or fish or vegetables or whatever, but sometimes I get that MUST HAVE BEEF and bison can sub in fairly seamlessly.  It ain't cheap, but can't have everything I guess.

Ostrich is also pretty beefy-flavored but is even more lean and even more of a pain in the ass to cook but not overcook.  It is also even more pricey, so I am usually too afraid to bother with it.

Can you talk me through your maths there? What are you looking at to get that figure of 7%? (Genuine request - I can't see what you're looking at.)

The figures I linked to are is from about the only source I can find that could be considered independent. Most of the other sites that I looked at seem to be promoting or selling bison products so I don't trust them as unbiased sources.  Also, my usual sources of nutrition info are all UK-centric and don't have bison as we don't happen to eat a lot of bison here. Sure you can get it in some specialist butchers but not where I live.  The predominant red game meat we have is venison which has considerably less fat than either bison or beef (Data sheet here (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/lamb-veal-and-game-products/4814/2) for 100g of loin cut, seperable lean only to provide fair comparison.)

For balance I should say I know nutrition data is only a guideline - the fat content of beef, for example, changes depending on their diet and breeding conditions (grass-fed cattle are generally leaner than grain-fed cattle).

Set both dropdowns to 100g:

100g bison = 171 calories
100g cow = 183 calories

171/183 = 0.9344262 or 93.4% of the fat of the cow  (I cheated a little and rounded off).


Yeah, bison in the UK I would be leery of.  Even here in California it's a little far from Bisonland.  I've ordered frozen from South Dakota/Iowa/somewhere in the plains, and it's packed in dry ice, and I still got one order that was soft and lukewarm.   Ate that one a little faster than planned!  (I blamed UPS for that, not the company, since the tracking showed it taking quite the tour of the state).

That particular supplier had venison too, and I like that as well, but back when I was ordering, there was some mumbling about BSE or the equivalent in venison (and elk).  It's probably been figured out by now, I should look into that again.

Okay - I see what you did but can I point out an error in your methodology? According to the nutrition data on those pages, 100g of either beef or bison contains 6g of fat which works out at 54kCal* of fat (there being 9kCal in every 1g of fat). The discrepancy in calories comes from the difference in protein amounts - beef has 31g of protein per 100g, bison has 28g. 4 kCal in every 1g of protein means that 3g difference has a calorific value of 12 kCal - which, as you observed, is what the difference is.

Bison has 7% (6.6%!) less calories because it has less protein than beef, not because it's got less fat.


*On the linked pages, it actually gives the calories from fat as 52 for beef and 51 bison because the actual fat amounts are 5.8g and 5.6g respectively. So pedantically speaking, bison does have less fat than beef in that cut by 0.2g.

I do if I have to, but it's usually trimmed at the butcher. I like buying my meats from the guy who carves it up.

Interesting article/opinion piece in NYT two days ago on the Cooking versus Junk Food debate.
Takes into account cost and time involved.

Findings according to the author: A) real food is cheaper and B) if every average American has an hour and a half to watch television every night then they can find time to cook.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/25/opinion/sunday/is-junk-food-really-cheaper.html?pagewanted=1&_r=3&smid=fb-nytimes

The issue really comes down to time spent.  My family's cooking is better than almost any restaurant.  It's the time required to cook in our busy lives that is the issue.  That's where our family falters, roughly twice a week. 

Their note about roasted chicken, though, is a good one.  That's a recipie to learn: Whole cleaned chicken on top of root vegetables, with maybe a nice bread... that's one we do almost every week.  Takes 15min to prep once you learn how to do it.  (hint: work together, one cleans the bird, the other cleans the veggies).  It is a meal that makes me feel both full, and good after eating it. 

Time to cook is silly. My week-night meals never run longer than a half-hour, and that's a rarity. Usually fifteen minutes from walking into the kitchen to putting food on the table. Takes longer to drive to a fast-food joint and pick up drive-through or wait for a pizza delivery.

Cook a lean protein (grill it three seasons), steam some veg and whole grain rice it up. You can swap the specifics, but it's still around fifteen minutes for almost any permutation.

What are you, a Spartan?  Some of us need some variety in our food. 

Chicken, turkey, pork and fish leave a lot of options.

And we throw in lean beef a couple times a month. I mean, that covers a whole lot of territory. Use spices and sauces to change things up, you can have chicken three days in a row if you have it prepared three different ways.

Sauces, ppl. Sauces.

I tend to go for spices instead.

We do some quick meals like that. 

1. Clean boneless chicken breasts. 15min marinade in 1 part balsamic, 1 part olive oil, salt, pepper.  As you throw it on the grill, sprinkle with Herb de Provence.  Grill.  Serve with chevrie or other goat cheese.  Sides as desired.  Goes good with artisan bread. 

2. Clean boneless chicken breasts. 15min marinade in chopped fresh rosemary, crushed fresh garlic, salt, pepper, olive oil mix.  Grill.  Slice thinly.  Place on warm pita/flatbread with veggies.  Chicken gyros...mmm.  If you can make a quick tzatziki sauce, all the better.  We usually don't go that far and use a little greek yogurt instead. 

Both those meals go great with baked, wedged, Yukon Golds.  Drizzle them with olive oil, a touch of butter, salt, pepper, garlic, maybe rosemary. 

Fresh green beans with a little lemon butter.

I'm seriously sick of living like a bachelor right now... I need to get moved in with my wife again soon.

It's not the cooking I hate so much as the cleaning up.

My diet is practically Sky's.  Either veggie "meat" or chicken\turkey, veggies, and maybe some rice.  5-15 minutes for dinner and done.  Do dishes while I'm cooking food so that when it's done all I have to do is eat and wash the plate.

Yep.

We are down to two cooking 'things' that don't go in the dishwasher - the cast iron skillet, and the chefs knife.

Everything else we use is either stainless steel or has proven hardy enough to survive. Cutting boards, crock pot insert, all pots and pans, some weird doofy unbreakable wine glasses with titanium in them (or some crazy thing like that), everything.   I actually sort of hate nonstick pans so it was pretty much a matter of just accumulating stainless steel pots & pans over time that weren't hideously expensive.   Finding a rice cooker with a stainless steel bowl was a little tricky, but it was totally worth it.  Nothing is more of a deterrent to cooking than cleaning up afterwards.

(And truth be told, I don't really 'clean' the cast iron skillet or knife anyway.   The skillet gets the fat-char sludge boiled out of it before each use and the knife pretty much gets rinsed and wiped dry with a dishtowel unless it was used for raw chicken.  Shh.)

I mostly stick with various pastas and steamed veggies. I can't cook, have no desire to cook, so most of the time I'm only eating meat when I eat out, and it's usually kabob or Indian or something (ie - not McD's).

Don't even own a grill...which would be pretty difficult with this apartment.

Exactly. Getting a dishwasher took most of the drudgery out of the nightly chore. And grilling nights are awesome, because I don't have to clean out the skillet.

Last night we test drove those sweet potatoes that comes shrink-wrapped in plastic, supposed to just pop them in the nuker. I gave them a solid "acceptable", she liked them. I'd prefer oven baking for the carmelization, but when it's hot out (what's up with that, btw), it's a good pinch solution when you want some sweet taters but not a hot kitchen or processed McCain's fries (which we love, but they do get processed).

Another trick I picked up was dicing up small red potatoes into 1-2" cubes (relatively uniform, pick a size and stick with it), adding some herbs and olive oil in a glass bowl. Toss and cover with plastic, nuke for a few minutes. Then toss them on a cookie sheet in the oven to brown. Nice creamy center and crisp brown outside.

We should probably move this over to the VoodooL thread.  :grin: