Mechwarrior Online

[Falconeer]

it's pretty much FTP no matter what anyone says.  

Yeah, I am really surprised by the sense of entitlement that gamers grew in just a few years. This game is free to play, period. World of Tanks is free to play, period. Planetside is free to play, period. And so on. As opposed to games like LoTRO where if you don't pay you are locked out from features and content and can't even really play with friends who pay.

Complaining that a company, in order to try and make money, dares to slow down your progress (while still giving you access to all content and every single feature) is Spoiled Kid attitude at best.

[Ironwood]

It's not even that.  The idea that you need masses of Cbills for a mech is nonsense.  I've seen so many players do better in a jenner than they do in something that costs monstrous amounts of money.

As expected, this whole 'Take The Biggest Mechs' strategy turned out to be nonsense.  They really did manage to make pretty much every mech viable if you can pilot it.

[Pennilenko]

Dual Gauss K2 Catapult is my precioussssssssssss.

[Ironwood]

You Fucking Munchkin, I hope you get Nerfed.

 

[Pennilenko]

You Fucking Munchkin, I hope you get Nerfed.

 

Why, I have to sacrifice so much survivability to get that build?

[Falconeer]

Pennilenko, the problem is not even that Gauss Rifle is OP (it is, it needs the minimum range that is in the table top game), the problem is that the other sniper weapons are ridiculous and broken in comparison. As soon as they will improve the PPC for example, or will give the Gauss the minimum range penalty that it needs, lots of complaining will go away.

That, and the fact that a double Gauss catapult is an abomination. Sorry, hard to ignore it when you are a bit into the Battletech universe.

[Ironwood]

Nah, I'm not 100% serious.  I really do admire those that can use the Twin Gauss.  My aim is just NOT that fucking good and, frankly, the ammo consumption is hell.

But Yeah, the Minimum thing is bullshit.

[Arthur_Parker]

The game itself is great; both in looks and how it plays.
The maps are far too few.
The Mechlab is great, but plagued with annoying bugs.
The Mech choice is far too narrow right now.
The skill system is annoying in that playing different variants is lame.
The weapons are good, but some need a second look; Gauss in particular is well OP and Missile Fleets make baby Jesus Cry.
The communication and grouping systems suck ass.
The Matchmaking needs a bit of work.
The Random Players that end up on your team are utter fuckholes.

I have enjoyed the hell out of it and will continue to do so.  I think it's perfectly viable right now, since it's pretty much FTP no matter what anyone says. 

Also, SRMs are awesomely fun.

I agree with all of that, except srms have been nerfed too hard recently, unless you are getting good results with the new flight path already, I'm not.

[Pennilenko]

All good by me I never played table top. I also don't give a crap about mech universe lore. I just like me some giant shooting robots.

[Arthur_Parker]

Also I don't mind playing different variants myself, as I like trying stupid builds but I can see how it might annoy other people.  The Gauss rifle does seem overpowered but I think it's actually about right, it's the other ballistic weapons that need buffed to bring them in line.

[Ironwood]

It's not playing the variants, it's the requirement to do so to level up skills.

Sure, make it easier if you do, but don't make it a requirement.  It's a pain in the tits.

[HaemishM]

Merusk, I am not gonna say you are wrong because as of now you are right. But it's hard not to repeat over and over that it's beta

No, sorry. You are taking money for it and now there's no NDA? THEY DON'T GET TO USE THAT EXCUSE. It's no longer a beta, if there is money coming into their coffers and it's not labeled a donation (a la Kickstarter) they aren't in beta anymore.

[Falconeer]

By that I only mean that it's clearly not done yet. It's not an excuse, more like an explanation. Hell, these people have said million of times that what they are launching is a MVP (Minimum Viable Product), knowing there's so much they can't do (but they would love to) with the available resources. For example, destructible environment. Hard not to be pissed about the absence of it, especially considering that the engine fully supports it, and they know how bad it is not to have it. But they candidly admitted that due to money tightness they had to choose between focusing on 'mechs destruction and environment destruction. As much as I'd want more stuff, I cannot help feeling that in this case being patient might works for me better than being annoyed.

[Shannow]

I don't remember their marketing pitch ever being minimum viable product. It felt more like; Battletech! We have all these great ideas! Give us money!  Oh wait you expect something for that money and won't simply be a happy fanboi? Well what we realllllly meant to say was....

Community warfare better be good. And they really need to ramp up their map production.

[HaemishM]

I'm going to give it more of a try this weekend. I don't hate the game, but I'm clearly disappointed simply because some very basic ideas about user experience has gotten lost in the shuffle.

[Falconeer]

If you choose to fund (that's what the founders plan is/was) an indie game and you expect AAA production value you are naive. Same if you choose to fund based on a marketing pitch insted of reading the available documentation, where they stated everything you needed to know about Minimum Viable Product.

That said, lots of funders are not unhappy with it, so shut up and enjoy your free game that some of us paid to make.

[HaemishM]

If by "expect AAA production value" you mean "expect a newbie user experience that doesn't turn me over and grab my wallet through a rectal exam" then you are correct.

Stop being a fucking fanboi. I'm not saying the game is terrible. I'm saying the game needs work and asking for money (whether you are an indie or not) means you don't get to claim "IT'S BETA, LOL!" This is not about entitlement, this about basic design issues that contribute to a really negative user experience that very well could mean the death of the game. As a noob somewhat familiar with the BTech universe, the game did not make me reach for my credit card after almost a week of playing. It made me play other things and hope the game improves while I'm busy elsewhere.

[Pennilenko]

I say if you haven't paid a dime into it, then shut the fuck up. Easy enough.

I mean, the shit is completely free, if you don't like it, don't play it, but you got no room to bitch. Only in this day and age can people complain about something that is free and feel entitled doing so.

[WayAbvPar]

Yeah, having opinions about video games is kinda what we do here. So telling people to shut up about a game they have ACTUALLY PLAYED? 

[Falconeer]

I'm saying the game needs work and asking for money (whether you are an indie or not) means you don't get to claim "IT'S BETA, LOL!" This is not about entitlement, this about basic design issues that contribute to a really negative user experience that very well could mean the death of the game. As a noob somewhat familiar with the BTech universe, the game did not make me reach for my credit card after almost a week of playing. It made me play other things and hope the game improves while I'm busy elsewhere.

But that the game isn't good enough to generate money is a problem only for them! For you, whether you like it or not, it's a completely free product. And in beta stage. Paying doesn't magically make it any less beta. In fact, you where paying (if you paid) exactly for that: beta.

I Kickstarted Wasteland 2, gave them money cause they asked and I was interested. Am I entitled to a ready, feature-complete, bugfree game, like, right now? And does the fact that I contributed automatically forbids them to call early builds of the game "beta"?

You would have a point if the item store was functioning, but this is not the case. Days are not being deducted from the subscriptions of those who funded it, and "real" money are being reset every couple of patch or so. Nor can anybody buy currency, or 'mech, or modules or anything. It IS beta.

The fanboi thing is getting old. On the other hand nothing seems to arouse people more these days than the right of getting a dollar tree out of that one coin that they (may or may not have) buried.


EDIT: To clarify, I am personally not trying to convince anyone that this game is amazing or perfect. Lots of people I know would hate it even if it were perfectly executed. I am just annoyed at the whole "money" thing, considering that money are exactly the reason why lots of things are not in the game yet. Even if you paid 1000$ that wouldn't make them happen, so understanding there are limitations, and not just ineptitude, is in my opinion a more objective way to evaluate this game.

[Arthur_Parker]

I think the game is the best thing ever but I could fill 3 pages of complaints and, as said earlier, community warfare better be good.

[HaemishM]

I say if you haven't paid a dime into it, then shut the fuck up. Easy enough.

I mean, the shit is completely free, if you don't like it, don't play it, but you got no room to bitch. Only in this day and age can people complain about something that is free and feel entitled doing so.

Seriously, WHAT THE FUCK? I can't discuss a game that I WANT TO PLAY AND WANT TO PAY THE DEVELOPERS FOR? Fuck off with that shit. They want me to pay them some money, the game needs to be better. Period. Don't give me this fanboi bullshit. I have room to offer constructive criticism whether I've paid money or not. We are discussing games here right? This game in particular? Just because it tickles your prostate doesn't mean it gives me the slightest bit of a chubby, and I have a right to say that.

Fuck's sake. I realize some of you guys really like this game, but this post. No.

[Shannow]

I'm going with Haemish on this one. This game has some serious problems and deserves to be bitched about. Do I want it to be the best thing sliced bread? Yes. Does it have the potential to be the best thing since sliced bread? Yes. Is it even close to being the best thing since wheat products cut into even pieces? No.

I got the feeling once I saw beta that this product was seriously underfunded. I have no problems with throwing cash at a game I think I'll love so it gets me a few early goodies and stuff, but I get the distinct feeling that the founder program was more a desperate grab for cash for a studio that had simply bitten off more than it could chew....

I don't remember WoT having a founders program (and their beta went forever) , did they have serious amounts of cash to bring to the table or were they simply better developers?

[Lightstalker]

Also I don't mind playing different variants myself, as I like trying stupid builds but I can see how it might annoy other people.  The Gauss rifle does seem overpowered but I think it's actually about right, it's the other ballistic weapons that need buffed to bring them in line.

The Gauss allows you to hit from range and then get out of the line of fire, or go back to making yourself an otherwise harder target.  The smaller Ballistics recycle *too fast* meaning you have to stay on target and exposed to counterfire to put your damage out.  AC/20s are even better than Gauss for dealing damage quickly with a minimum of exposure but suffer far larger heat, range and ammunition costs than the Gauss.  Really, it is the superior range, heat, and ammunition of the Gauss that makes it a weapon of choice.  MWO increased Gauss ammo by 25% per ton over the table top, other ballistics don't have that.  The AC/20 Cat is the only Mech that can promise 1-volley 1-kill (right now) but you seriously need to not be standing in front or out on your own - both hard to manage in PUGs.  

Other ballistics already lacked punch in the table top game, before MWO doubled armor values.  Heat levels are also a bit high, even making it a challenge to maintain continuous fire.  UAC5 was an exception up to the implementation of the jamming mechanic.  


Anyway, the root cause is that there is no "plan" for how to balance their weapons.  They move around the weapon list making spot adjustments in turn based on what has the most complaints or what they are personally using today.  It is very EQ1 in that regard, this has all the hallmarks of a rookie effort.  Why bother with engine limits?  Eventually there will be a chassis in every speed range for every weight, it is really only a move that masks the real problem: direct aiming + network lag = unfun play experience.  There will be 'window dragging' style exploitation in this game, just like we'll see every other possible pvp exploit and hack before the end.  

Engels said it earlier; the greatest advantage of this game is its greatest weakness - this game was designed by mechnerds.

[Goreschach]

Would it be uncouth to mention three star talent and five star drive?

[Falconeer]

I don't remember WoT having a founders program (and their beta went forever) , did they have serious amounts of cash to bring to the table or were they simply better developers?

I'd say better developers, but that's just because I think the people at WoT are incredibly talented. WoT felt stellar right away, so they win by default for me.
That said, they also developed the game in a completely different market (Russia), so I really have no idea if that makes any difference when it comes to funding a game, and in what ways.

[Arthur_Parker]

Lightstalker, You can one hit kill people with a dual guass if you critical on the head, I've done it and had it done to me too.  I really don't give a shit about TT.

Anyway, the root cause is that there is no "plan" for how to balance their weapons.  

Bollocks.  You can't know that to be true and logically it doesn't make sense, any idiot who has played the game could put a "plan" together.  They fixed large lasers over two patches.

Pro and anti, please stop being retarded in this thread, there is plenty to complain about without making shit up.

[Lightstalker]

Also, SRMs are awesomely fun.

I agree with all of that, except srms have been nerfed too hard recently, unless you are getting good results with the new flight path already, I'm not.

If you tended to use SRMs within 50m on an Atlas into an Atlas, there really isn't a difference.  If you drive something faster and take shots at longer range the SRM plays a lot more like the LBx10 now, which isn't bad just different from what you came to expect.  SRMs did silly damage, better at being an AC/20 than the AC/20, but now they move into room-sweeper land instead of slug thrower.

My 3x SRM-6 Centurion (300xl) was retired when they added the missile bay door delay, that unpredictable delay at high speed just made the weapon system unplayable.  The bay door animation delay isn't such a big deal on LRMs, but only because the enemy can't cross that firing arc at range like they can up close.  I think this particular change shows poor developer resource management decisions, this is a visual character change that impacts the viability of the platform and disproportionally impacts some weapon systems over others.  Flavor graphics shouldn't impact gameplay - we don't have to go back far to see the outcry when higher quality female character attack animations negatively impact potential DPS...


The single volley kill with Gauss relies on a critical and isn't a guarantee, that was my point.  I've taken someone from extreme range on a throw-away shot with a single gauss but I'm not basing my entire mech choice on something as unpredictable as that.  Also, Gauss was doing unintended damage to internal structure a while ago hence residual popularity.

And I'll stand by the lack of a plan comment.  Their admirable 'fixing' of various weapons groups is all reactive adjustments to the things they've broken.

[Falconeer]

The bay door animation delay isn't such a big deal on LRMs, but only because the enemy can't cross that firing arc at range like they can up close.  I think this particular change shows poor developer resource management decisions, this is a visual character change that impacts the viability of the platform and disproportionally impacts some weapon systems over others.  Flavor graphics shouldn't impact gameplay

When you type this, are you aware that the "Community" kind of voted to keep them, right?

Also, Gauss "unpredictable"? You are a strange Mechwarrior...

[Arthur_Parker]

And I'll stand by the lack of a plan comment.  Their admirable 'fixing' of various weapons groups is all reactive adjustments to the things they've broken.

Double heat sinks & the engine heat sink change aren't even in yet.  I personally wouldn't expect weapon balancing done considering such major things are in the pipeline, but please continue to explain simple concepts to me as if I hadn't already said I'd played the crap out of this so far.

edit, speaking of which, double heat sinks are going to break this game for about 3 patches.

[Shannow]

I honestly don't understand why they are in such a rush to add all the new tech. Personally I think they couldve focused on just having 3025 tech at launch (ie spend more time on community warfare, maps, gameplay modes) and then released 3050 tech as a big old update.

One of my wishes for this game is eventually have the option of playing games that are '25 tech only or vanilla mech only.

[Evildrider]

And I'll stand by the lack of a plan comment.  Their admirable 'fixing' of various weapons groups is all reactive adjustments to the things they've broken.

Double heat sinks & the engine heat sink change aren't even in yet.  I personally wouldn't expect weapon balancing done considering such major things are in the pipeline, but please continue to explain simple concepts to me as if I hadn't already said I'd played the crap out of this so far.

edit, speaking of which, double heat sinks are going to break this game for about 3 patches.

If they were clan heat sinks maybe.  1 tons and 3 slots is a pain in the ass.  Sure you save some tonnage but what else are you gonna fit in?  I mean with the way that the weapon slots are set up I have more problems with space on my atlas then I do with going overweight.  You also can't mix and match double and single heat sinks.

[Arthur_Parker]

Jenners with 4 medium pulse lasers for example, the lights are going to get most out of it.

[Evildrider]

It's still not as huge an issue with the way that heat cycles in this game.  Also remember that the heat numbers and damages have been tweaked.  They've nerfed med. lasers already.  The biggest thing that makes lights a pain in the ass isn't as much about their damage output, but the double armor, their mobility, and the wonky travel times for weapons to hit.

[Arthur_Parker]

Heat is a major limiting factor on lights damage output, try stripping all armour except a ton from a jenner, fit weapons and sinks as normal and see if you notice how fast people drop when you hit them from behind.