Things I don't like about CoH

[Xanthippe]

50 is too far from 1.  40 as top level would have been good. They should have stopped there.

Picking a primary and secondary is tough, since they cannot be respecced.

Levelling curve is too steep.

No tradeskills.

[Shockeye]

The crushing grind that sets in at level 2 really hurts the game, in my opinion.

[Xanthippe]

Yes, I was surprised how long it took me to get to 14 so I could fly.  A very long time.

And now I remember why I quit.  Because it takes my fire/fire blaster so long to gain xp.  Missions are not much different at 32 than they were at 12.  Go here, kill a bunch of those, rescue these, search for a couple of foozles.

I do like ambushes.  I just wish there was more ... different fun things to do instead of the same thing since level 1.

This is a game that cries for alts - especially since a respec just means the choice of powers in the set you already chose and a shifting of those whatchamajiggers on the powerset.  Why can't a respec be a "change powerset" respec?

There's a lot of good in this game but it could be so much better.

[Signe]

It is good and I still play from time to time.  It needs loads more content.  I only enjoy myself, these days, playing alone, when the house is clean and there is absolutely nothing to do.  I almost always play on the test server, too.

[stray]

I hate the grind, and I agree with everything said.....But today, I catassed like I've never catassed in any game before. Must have been 12 or 14 hours. 

I had to get my cape. What can I say?

[schild]

The endgame ends at level 1.

[Signe]

The endgame ends at level 1.

Shouldn't you be unpacking or feeding the spiders?

[Xilren's Twin]

As much as it pains me to admit it...

Lack of "stuff".

Im not saying they need to add equipment or typical style loot, but there's no question being able to get neat little dodads is fun for lots of people.  Badges just don't cut it from that respect.

If they had housing/apartments (and perhaps with the HQ's), just the ability to add decorations, furniture, trophies and other "props" you can get by doing missions and such (and that had no impact on gameplay) would be nice.

Xilren

[ClydeJr]

Changing the game after a year and a half - I5 is going to change the way the game is played completely. Making a change like this all at once after people have invested a lot of time in their chars is pissing a lot of people off.

Lack of mission diversity - They really need to make the missions a lot more interesting.

Lack of missions - I'm tired of doing the same missions with every character. Make more and different missions based on archetype and origin.

Uselessness of areas - Nobody goes to Faultline, Eden, or Rikti Crash Site unless its absolutely necessary. The Hive is never used unless to kill the Hamidon which doesn't happen much anymore since the Hami-O nerf.

Lack of character slots - You can fill up all8 slot on a server very quick due to alt-itis. It would be nice that instead of 8 slots per server, you had 80+ slots in a common pool and you could assign those to whatever server you want.

[Trippy]

Lack of mission diversity - They really need to make the missions a lot more interesting.

Lack of missions - I'm tired of doing the same missions with every character. Make more and different missions based on archetype and origin.

Yeah that's what killed the game for me. I never got out of my teens cause I couldn't take anymore missions in the bland instanced mission areas.

[CmdrSlack]

They've added a ton of character to the missions so far, especially at lower levels.  Even simple environmental effects appropriate to the villain type makes a big difference. 

The Tsoo tatoo parlor stuff looks great, as do a lot of the mid teens to 20s Freakshow maps.

I5 has new mission types coming, some designed for lower levels (like the Steel Canyon fires).

But back on track for the thread....

I also dislike the lack of items that I can wear or place in housing.  I guess the unlockable witch hat is a step in the right direction.  I've been told that more unlockable stuff is coming with CoV, as well as the ability to unlock items for use in your SG's base...some will be group missions, some solo missions.

[Xanthippe]

I wish I could try out a level 40 toon (a la Guild Wars) so that I'd have some idea what I want to spend time playing to get there.

I resubbed a few weeks ago and already have 4 toons on Victory.  8 slots doesn't seem like enough.

[HaemishM]

Levelling curve is too steep.

That's it. That's the single biggest problem with the game, and the problem from which just about everything else falls out of. There is too little mission diversity because you have to slog through too many of the same missions to get your levels. Even when they added the new mission xp rewards, it still was too slow, and only got worse from there. I shudder to think about CoV now, simply because in order to get to the interesting PVP, I'll have to level well-beyond my capacity to stand the leveling.

[stray]

It's their association with the folks working on Lineage or something. It's gotta be.

Why the hell else would they make an otherwise solid game, but refuse to see this glaring problem?

Hey Cryptic: Koreans do not play your game. Stop acting as if they do.

Please change it.

[Glazius]

Levelling curve is too steep.

That's it. That's the single biggest problem with the game, and the problem from which just about everything else falls out of. There is too little mission diversity because you have to slog through too many of the same missions to get your levels. Even when they added the new mission xp rewards, it still was too slow, and only got worse from there. I shudder to think about CoV now, simply because in order to get to the interesting PVP, I'll have to level well-beyond my capacity to stand the leveling.

...are you guys remembering the same game I'm playing?

I'm the (tied for) highest-level character in a primarly roleplay-oriented supergroup. In a little under three months I've made it to 30 by playing three, maybe four, hours a week. When I5 hits my XP intake is going to go up 30%, since the SG is fairly spread out and we run on the lowest difficulty level.

If CoV works like CoH you'll be okay with getting to 25 or whenver the best CoV enhancers show up, since in the PvP to date everyone works under Giant Monster Code - you hit and damage the other guy as though you were his level.

--GF

[stray]

What games did you play before CoH, Glazius (longterm, I mean)? Just wondering. CoH is operating at DAoC pace....6 months (but in Dark Ages, that's with the master lvls and expansions).

Three months is maxing out in WoW (casually). Probably SWG too. Most players find that to be a good limit (no, I have don't stats).

The last game that I played longterm was Shadowbane. It took me about 4 hours to get to 30.....So, you can probably assess how I view grinds coming from that particular experience.

Lastly, all 4 games have more to offer in terms of gameplay types and endgame than CoH. In CoH, you just kill mobs for xp. And kill more. Very slow-like. And once you're finished, you're finished.

The sad thing is: "Lack of depth" doesn't necessarily have to be a crime. It has all the makings of a game that could be as action packed as a console title, but Cryptic has decided not to play to any of those strengths. If it was faster, "simply killing things" can be a fun thing....Especially when it comes to "superhero" powers. If it allowed people to lvl multiple characters at a reasonable pace, then that would be it's "depth".

edited

[Alkiera]

In CoH, you just kill mobs for xp. And kill more. Very slow-like.

 If it was faster, "simply killing things" can be a fun thing....Especially when it comes to "superhero" powers. If it allowed people to lvl multiple characters at a reasonable pace, then that would be it's "depth".

I'm assuming all your 'speed' comments here are refering to your xp bar, and not combat speed?  My scrapper, at 42, can kill +2 bosses faster than the average fight length in WoW...  At least, based on my experience as a low teens rogue and druid in the beta.  With headsplitter and Build Up, I can literally kill 2 or 3 minions in a single blow.  The level of 'interactiveness' in combat is about the same between a WoW Rogue at that level, and a CoH scrapper at pretty much any level.  Sure, a rogue will attack more often, but only due to auto-attack, which is all serverside.  You turn it on at the begining of a fight, and forget about it, to focus on your special moves.  In CoH, it's the same, except there is no autoattack, and your 'special' attacks do more damage to make up for it.

The deal with CoH is that the fighting is interesting.  You're always fighting groups of things, so there are lots of tactical considerations, who to take out first, which attack will be the most ideal at this time, should I use Unstoppable/Elude/MoG now, or wait till later, etc.  Most of that kind of thinking only occurs in groups in other MMOs.  Soloing is either strictly a 1v1 affair, or simply ineffective or not possible.


Alkiera

[Velorath]

One of the things I don't like is that the game makes being a superhero in Paragon City seem mundane, like it's a 9-5 job these guys do for a living.  Aside from the powers and costumes, there really isn't much of a comic book feel to the game especially when it comes to the missions.  There's too much predictability.  Like others have said, it the same stuff over and over again rather than missions where you find out your costume is actually an alien, or you discover the kid sidekick that you thought died in the line of action is actually alive and is a villain now.  

There's no worrying about people learning your secret identity, no juggling your normal life with your superhero life...  no focus on anything outside of beating up villains.  In fact I think one of the solutions adding other kinds of content to the game to break things up a little lies in those areas, and hopefully will be something that will be looked at for Marvel and DC's games.  Most superheroes live double-lives which often conflict with each other.  There's got to be at least a few mini-games in there somewhere.

[stray]

I'm assuming all your 'speed' comments here are refering to your xp bar, and not combat speed?

Well, I hate to say it, but yes, XP speed. It's hard to not focus on that. It's an itemless, lvl based game, after all.

Fast XP tells me that I can see and do more in less time (and without much to offer except combat and sight seeing, I need all that I can get).

Fast XP tells me that my character's efforts are appreciated. That what I'm doing is "heroic". And since I'm not getting a pair of boots or a sword after every quest, nor are the quest giver npc's handing over their wives or daughters to me, all I have to look forward to is xp.

As for the missions and stories, well, they certainly aren't a factor in how I view my character's progression. The stories in CoH seem to unravel just about everything except information about "myself". None of the quests are about "me". They're about this and that bad guy or villian group; that I need to find out who they are and what's the nature of their plans; that they stole or kidnapped someone or something, etc., etc..

Simply having a lot of quests isn't an indicator of a deep quest system to me. A "deep" storyline would be one where I'm unraveling things about my character. Not just everything outside of him. If the story was that deep, then I could play for days without lvling at all. I'm a adventure game addict. I eat that stuff up.

With the system that's in place though, the only thing that'd make it more interesting is if I see that my actions are overturning villian organizations in a big way, and in turn, constantly moving on to the next group of bad guys --- And that could only be accomplished by faster lvling.

[edit] And what you said about combat is interesting. Would it make sense if I said that since CoH requires an even higher level of interactivity and awareness from the player than most mmogs, then I should be rewarded even moreso than what I get in those other games?

[Llava]

One of the things I don't like is that the game makes being a superhero in Paragon City seem mundane.

The 9-5 job thing doesn't nail my issue with it (when it becomes an issue for me, which is on and off, usually off) but that it's SO mundane.  Really, you're a celebrity hero.  Everyone knows you, there's no mystery or fear there.  And while the game does a good job of making you feel like you're The Favorite hero, that you're simply a hero isn't impressive at all- they're part of the daily life of Paragon City.  It robs some of the mystique from the genre.

There was one story arc I did in which Crey Industries framed me for several crimes and ran a smear campaign against me, turning the city against me.  It was cool, but there was really nothing in-game to display it.  I was ambushed by some Nemesis soldiers, but that was it.  Even something as simple as smacking a temporary power on me that I couldn't remove which simply made citizens run away from me like they do for all the badguys would've made it feel a lot more genuine and, to put it plainly, fun.

There's no worrying about people learning your secret identity, no juggling your normal life with your superhero life...  no focus on anything outside of beating up villains.  In fact I think one of the solutions adding other kinds of content to the game to break things up a little lies in those areas, and hopefully will be something that will be looked at for Marvel and DC's games.  Most superheroes live double-lives which often conflict with each other.  There's got to be at least a few mini-games in there somewhere.

Unfortunately, the normal life part of the game isn't anywhere in view.  Statesman's said a few times in response to the secret identity thing "YOU are your hero's secret identity" which says, to me, that they're not dealing with that.  Good and bad.  Bad, because yeah, it does make the heroing feel more significant- the sweet isn't as sweet without the sour, as it were.  A few minigames could make it fun in its own right, and give players a bigger sense of identity and investment in the world than what level they are.  On the other hand, not putting this stuff in is good because it's precisely the kind of thing that turns a lot of people away from MMOGs- the moisture farming part of Star Wars.  Additionally, CoH gives you complete freedom with your character concepts, and not all heroes have regular lives.  This goes beyond just your Spawns or Morbiuses (Morbii?) to your completely obsessed heroes like the Punisher.  Does he keep a day job?  There are some concepts whose lives are completely consumed by their hero aspect, and forcing players to deal with the "regular lives" of their characters could ruin those concepts.

[stray]

Maybe I'm asking too much. Some of this stuff (sadly) goes out of the realm of mmorpg's (at least as we know them). Any attempts at it, as Llava said, most likely would turn out to be something that resembles moisture farming.

The "non hero" things could really get more attention in single player superhero games though. At least it can be more easily implemented there. About the only thing that comes off the top of my head (at the moment) is the pizza delivery missions in the Spider-Man 2 console game. But there's more to Peter Parker than pizza delivery -- Hell, he's more about who Spidey is than the actual hero stuff.

[Velorath]

Maybe I'm asking too much. Some of this stuff (sadly) goes out of the realm of mmorpg's (at least as we know them). Any attempts at it, as Llava said, most likely would turn out to be something that resembles moisture farming.

I don't think that's true, and besides that isn't part of the problem with moisture farming that it just isn't fun gameplay-wise?  I'm thinking more along the lines of actually mini-games rather than something like typical, dull MMORPG crafting. 

And as far as characters like the Punisher go Llava, I'd imagine one of their mini-games would be making their getaway from the cops after a mission.

[stray]

I didn't think that he was talking about crafting per se, but just that the social life/secret identity stuff would almost definitely be borked in some way. Being Clark Kent or Peter Parker would probably be best left to the single player realm, so I'm not going to force those kind of expectations on CoH. Not even single player games have really done that well either.

Some things could go a long way though, even if they're still within the realm of "hero mode" type activities. Like your example with the Punisher and getaways. I love that idea.

Having multiple choice dialogue with the villians you arrest or the contacts you speak to (which in turn could shift your story arc in different directions) would be the bee's knees. The way it is now, there's no lvl of interaction with how I get missions, besides the fact that I can ignore certain contacts if I want. Oh, and I guess "Origin" is a small factor. Still, that's not even close to I'm talking about.

[Glazius]

Having multiple choice dialogue with the villians you arrest or the contacts you speak to (which in turn could shift your story arc in different directions) would be the bee's knees. The way it is now, there's no lvl of interaction with how I get missions, besides the fact that I can ignore certain contacts if I want. Oh, and I guess "Origin" is a small factor. Still, that's not even close to I'm talking about.

Yeah, the gameworld could definitely do more to recognize you. Even with the stories as they run now, it's possible to take them "out of order" and screw up the narrative. F'rex, I ran "The Library Of Souls" as something like an inaugural mission chain for a late-game magic contact, and in so doing learned how the Circle of Thorns make their troops. And then the same contact offered me a mini-arc where a college-age cultist got turned into a Death Mage, which closed with the contact wondering about exactly what happened to do that. Obviously it was _supposed_ to happen the other way 'round but it'd be nice if the dialogue could change. I'm pretty sure the text for some of the Crey missions changes if you have "The Doctor's Ally"/liberate Number 6.

That said, it seems like CoH is going a lot more for the "Astro City" feel than anything DC/Marvel.

--GF

[Alkiera]

And what you said about combat is interesting. Would it make sense if I said that since CoH requires an even higher level of interactivity and awareness from the player than most mmogs, then I should be rewarded even moreso than what I get in those other games?

For me, the higher level of interactivity and awareness IS the reward.  That's why I pay the $15/month...  if I wanted passive entertainment, I'd watch TV.  Or Eve Online.  EQ was too passive for the most part... in fact, most groups worked hard to make the game as passive as possible.  Actual excitement while grouping usually meant something had gone horribly wrong.  The worst part of that game was it was like watching Lord of the Rings, but in a mega-extended version that actually shows every step Frodo takes between the shire and Mt. Doom, rather than just the interesting parts.

CoH, on the other hand, is more action-oriented.  It cuts out most of the boring parts, leaving behind the parts of the superhero life people might actually want to play... the part where you beat up the bad guys.  You can go 1-50 without ever spending time in some random zone  corner, pulling mob after mob to be slaughtered by your group, without ever having to camp the rare spawn, without waiting for the rare drop.  It's an MMO without all the things that burned me out of EQ and DAoC.

Some things could go a long way though, even if they're still within the realm of "hero mode" type activities. Like your example with the Punisher and getaways. I love that idea.

Having multiple choice dialogue with the villians you arrest or the contacts you speak to (which in turn could shift your story arc in different directions) would be the bee's knees. The way it is now, there's no lvl of interaction with how I get missions, besides the fact that I can ignore certain contacts if I want. Oh, and I guess "Origin" is a small factor. Still, that's not even close to I'm talking about.

I agree that the mission system could be more... flexible... and it'd be nice if there were more options.  As it is, they alter the quests for your origin for the level 1-5 contact, and then afterwards everyone uses the same pool of contacts, and therefore the same quests.  It's a shame.  What if, as a magic origin, I only had access to magic villain quests, but there were many more of them?  Well, for one thing, I'd get really tired of the Circle of Thorns.  Or if every level had a couple 'generic' villain groups that everyone worked against, but another group or two that was tied to your origin, so you could get a different experience by playing a different origin for an alt.  Heck, make some AT-specific mission strings too, like the Kheldian arcs that came in when they did.  No one else can do them unless they group with a Kheldian.

Really, tho, I don't know that any other MMO does this any better.  If you play a dwarf hunter in WoW, and then make a dwarf warrior, you're gonna have a LOT of the same quests.  Even if you start as a different Alliance race, like an elf, then you have different quests up to 15 or so, then leave the forrest for the rest of the world, and do the same quests from 15-50.  There were very, very few quests in EQ1 that had a variable ending based on player choices...  the Rogue epic was one such.  I don't know of anything like that in other MMOs.  So while it would be nice, it's not exactly like they've left something out that is an industry standard or anything.

Alkiera

[HaemishM]

The XP speed isn't really about the XP, so much as it is about the fact that after level 15-20 or so, the time between new powers gets really long. REALLY LONG. Debt makes it even worse. Now, this wouldn't be such a big deal if there was more variety in missions, as well as things like post-mission issues, such as certain heroes having to escape the cops (think Batman Begins) while others get parades or some such. All the heroes get treated the same by the game world, thus there really isn't much point in being a dark hero, or a goody-goody hero. The character creation part was great, but your repuation to the game world, your character's personality? You weren't really much allowed to build that outside of the typical MMOG roleplaying, which amounts to public circle jerking that most people won't notice anyway. You can't be Spider-Man, considered by some to be a menace on par with the villains he fights, so that the people you rescue are often as frightened of you as they were of the villains.

Without all of that, you are left with leveling to get new powers, as the new powers give you new methods of playing the game. And when those new patterns start coming at you less and less frequently, that grinding XP rate sets in.

They did an amazing job with a small set of powers, but really, the game is tailor-made for quick leveling and testing numerous alts. It's just that leveling is too slow. 3 months for level 30? Too slow. I spend too much time looking forward to the ding so that I can get the new power.

[Merusk]

Well, everyone's pointed out exactly my problem, and said what I would have on it.  Grind, grind, grind, grind.. 14!

I played for 6 months even more actively than I have been playing WoW.  The highest character I got was a 26 scrapper. The next highest was a level 14 controller.  No thanks, I'm done with that shit. 

I've got some friends who still love it.  They tell me they don't understand what I mean by 'grind' because, as they put it,  all they do is missions, and "grinding" is pointless mob bashing a-la EQ.  There is no grind because they never have to do that kind of mob camping. I see their point, but they're also Altaholics and haven't maxed out anything, but see no problem with that.  They're far less achiever-oritented than I am, I suppose.   I'd like to get a few chars up to max in a reasonable amount of time.. or at least one after that 6-month period.

[Xanthippe]

What is moisture farming?

My highest is a 32 or 33 fire/fire blaster.  The problem I have is that the missions are redundant.  I enjoy playing the game, but not so much that I want to spend 6 or 9 months on the same types of missions over and over. 

I'm in no rush to get to max level in any game at all; DAOC took me 2 years, I think? Never maxed one in the 6 or so months I played WoW.  I like to play alts.  I like to play a game, not get to the max level.  Especially since in CoH, there's not much to do at max level.

The levelling does seem slow to me, nevertheless, particularly for a game that is so flexible when it comes to character creation in terms of the numbers and kinds of combinations that are possible.  However, it's inflexible - once you've decided on a primary and secondary, you're stuck with them. 

So I found out how much fire secondary sucks on a blaster in my 20s.  But I can't change it. 

I don't see why Cryptic shouldn't ease up on the levelling, or allow respecs of powers to other powersets.  If that was a carrot for getting to 50 (should be 40 dammit), I'd probably get there.

[Llava]

What is moisture farming?

Luke was a moisture farmer on Tatooine before Obi Wan took him to learn the ways of the Jedi.

The makers of SWG felt "Jedi have been done to death- LET'S SEE MORE OF THE MOISTURE FARMING!  THAT'S what players want!"

[Velorath]

I didn't think that he was talking about crafting per se, but just that the social life/secret identity stuff would almost definitely be borked in some way. Being Clark Kent or Peter Parker would probably be best left to the single player realm, so I'm not going to force those kind of expectations on CoH. Not even single player games have really done that well either.

Well, crafting was mostly just an example since you guys brought up the moisture farming which is more or less under the crafting catagory.  My point was that there is nothing inherently wrong with giving people the option of moisture farming as long as the mechanics for it are actually fun.  Likewise, there isn't anything about the option of playing your superhero's alter ego that is inherently unfun.  We've just gotten to the point where our expectations for MMO's are so low that the suggestion of any kind of gameplay other than what we're used to is met with understandable skepticism.

Using another example, let say at character creation you set up your character's alter ego as well.  You decide if you have relatives in the city, a wife or girlfriend, which of them if any know your secret identity (unless your identity is public), and that kind of stuff.  Also possibly have some early missions set up your standing with the public and the cops.  Now let's say you chose to have a girlfriend who doesn't know your identity.  Randomly during or right after a mission, your character might realize he has to meet her for dinner by a certain time.  Now you have to make it there before the clock runs down, find a safe place to change out of your costume without being seen, and maybe pick up some flowers or something.  Make it in time you get some xp.  Fuck up and I wouldn't suggest a penalty, but maybe it affects the story somehow.  Get caught changing in public too many times, and maybe one of your enemies finds out your identity and tosses your mom off a bridge or something.  No great rewards or penalties for any of this since people shouldn't feel like they HAVE to do any of this, but give people comparable xp to what they'd get doing missions for a similar amounts of time to give them options for leveling and ways to develop their characters' stories.

[HaemishM]

I like your ideas Velorath, and would be interested in subscribing to your newsletter.

[Velorath]

CoH is pretty much the one MMO I could actually discuss in depth since it's related to comics.  I'm so damn far beyond caring about anything fantasy related (aside from Conan) that I don't even try to figure out what could possibly fix those games anymore.

That and since there's Marvel and DC games being worked on, I've done a lot of thinking lately about what CoH could have done better. 

Edit:  Comics can be so easy to get right that even Hollywood has managed to accomplish it several times in the past few years.  Spiderman 1 & 2, Batman Begins, and maybe to a lesser extent (in that I don't much care for it) Smallville, I think show that the human side of these characters can be more interesting than the hero side.  Leaving that side out just leaves you with the so-called "male adolecent power fantasies" aspect of comics.

I agree that the mission system could be more... flexible... and it'd be nice if there were more options. As it is, they alter the quests for your origin for the level 1-5 contact, and then afterwards everyone uses the same pool of contacts, and therefore the same quests. It's a shame. What if, as a magic origin, I only had access to magic villain quests, but there were many more of them? Well, for one thing, I'd get really tired of the Circle of Thorns. Or if every level had a couple 'generic' villain groups that everyone worked against, but another group or two that was tied to your origin, so you could get a different experience by playing a different origin for an alt. Heck, make some AT-specific mission strings too, like the Kheldian arcs that came in when they did. No one else can do them unless they group with a Kheldian.

I would have done origins a lot differently. One idea I had was dividing the game up into different power levels.  Street-based heroes would get one set of missions and villains (gangs, low powered villains), with maybe a Punisher-style vigilante sub-group, Mystical heroes get another set (supernatural), and high-powered heroes would be the last set (Thor, many of the top-tier DC characters).  Maybe throw in stuff like Cosmic heroes in an expansion.  For the most part each set of heroes would stay in their own little world.  This game encourages making alts, so speed up the leveling and people will make other characters if they want to see all the content.  It makes more sense than heroes going from somewhat weak to super-powerful.  Here they'd at a fairly consistent power level, but learn new tricks with their powers (example: Spider-man learning how to make a glider or a baseball bat out of his webbing, or designing his spider tracers which work on the wavelength of his spider sense).  Supergroups would have their own mission set allowing characters from different areas to group together..

[Hoax]

CoH is pretty much the one MMO I could actually discuss in depth since it's related to comics.  I'm so damn far beyond caring about anything fantasy related (aside from Conan) that I don't even try to figure out what could possibly fix those games anymore.

That and since there's Marvel and DC games being worked on, I've done a lot of thinking lately about what CoH could have done better. 

Edit:  Comics can be so easy to get right that even Hollywood has managed to accomplish it several times in the past few years.  Spiderman 1 & 2, Batman Begins, and maybe to a lesser extent (in that I don't much care for it) Smallville, I think show that the human side of these characters can be more interesting than the hero side.  Leaving that side out just leaves you with the so-called "male adolecent power fantasies" aspect of comics.

Smallville is awesome, for Lana Lang alone (Kristen something) I would watch it.  But I also enjoy the dynamic between Mr. Kent and Lex Luthor as well as between the Luthor father and son.  Enough so that the show is shy of being complete drivel; that I'm watching for a babe ala Dawson's Creek in 7th-8th grade for Katie Holmes.

[Velorath]

Smallville is awesome, for Lana Lang alone (Kristen something) I would watch it.  But I also enjoy the dynamic between Mr. Kent and Lex Luthor as well as between the Luthor father and son.  Enough so that the show is shy of being complete drivel; that I'm watching for a babe ala Dawson's Creek in 7th-8th grade for Katie Holmes.

Bah, Chloe FTW!

[schild]

K, see, I don't know how you pick Lana, Lois, or Chloe over eachother. Kristen Kreuk did do an amazing photoshoot that included this though. Erica Durance and Allison Mack are also hot, but they don't get the phat advertising dollars because they are too girl next door.

Smallville does rock, imho.