Cracks starting to show?

[Miasma]

This time through outlands I just did dungeon finder pugs.  The levels went pretty fast and all the dungeons were way, way easier than I remembered them (a lot of people are in BoA so that helps too).  I think all I did was queue up and then harvest metal/herbs (which is also great xp now).  The queues are fast 60-70 because no one wants to quest, even as dps they only took around five minutes.

Actually now that I think about it I did quest a couple levels through Nagrand.  I love Nagrand.  Probably my all time favorite zone.

[Kageru]

Those are related.  It isn't that the game is too hard for casuals.  It was too hard for too long for casuals.  If they had kept the stream of content going by releasing new stuff at the hard level for hardcores and lowering the "hardness" of the older content for the casuals at a decent pace, there probably would be much less issues.  As it was, they came out with changes/content too slow and it killed the casual guilds.  People get bored being kept at the lower tiers for too long and found other things to do.  Myself included.  It's great that they made the game more casual friendly.  Doesn't matter though, I already quit.

Making the content easier for casuals is something that would have kept my money coming in.  It isn't enough to make me come back.  If they have a major expansion that looks interesting, I might give it a try again.

That sounds like a terrible approach. You don't want people to have to wait months to dip their toes in the current content or only really make progress when it's been binned. The Wrath model was perfect with content being reasonably balanced for decent guilds, hard modes for a solid challenge and some achievements being for the e-peen measurers.

The main difference being in Wrath a decent guild would be "well, we saw all the content, did some hard modes" while in Cata it's "we got obliterated and people drifted away rather than wait for the handicapped ramp to be added".

[Sheepherder]

I could see if you have two 85s, you get a free 80, or something like that.

It would be a good promotion. You just start in the newest content levelling immediately.

Track every quest a player has done at an appropriate level, across characters and servers.  On a new character once a player meets the requirements to take that quest, it's automatically completed with a simple click-to-confirm at the quest giver, but gives no experience or rewards (or the character takes and completes the quest normally, their choice).  If the server logs aren't complete enough make an algorithm that estimates which path a player took 1-85 per character and grant them quests accordingly.

If an account has all zones of a given level range cleared for that faction, just let the player skip those 10 levels.

[Sjofn]

I am pretty sure it would be easier to just level at that point. 

[Paelos]

They need to do something about reputations across characters. Like some sort of BoA item that grants 21000 rep to your alts so that you don't have to do anything but the exalted grind, but you can only buy it when exalted.

[Rendakor]

I wish they'd just go back to BoA rep items; even just doing BoA enchants (head/shoulder) would go a long way. It's even clear that they intended to do so, since the head enchants are BoA, they just still require the rep to use them.  Hell, I'd settle for getting tabard-rep in raids if you have one on; my lock alt has a 357 ilvl from raiding, but still has on a blue neck because I'm only 10k/21k with the Dragonmaw (and they're the FIRST rep I decided to grind on that toon).

[caladein]

It's even clear that they intended to do so, since the head enchants are BoA, they just still require the rep to use them.

That hasn't been the case for five months.  Ones bought before 4.0.6 still have the requirement on them, but you can't buy those anymore, just the no-reputation-requirement ones.

[WindupAtheist]

If this were still Wrath I'd be playing again. I have a friend playing a newb, but eh... Phasing, I'd be lucky if I could even see them half the time. Not being able to see the 'real' world without doing 43984398 grey quests sucks. I wanna just be able to talk to an NPC and mark everything 1-60 as complete, forfeiting any rewards/rep those quests give.

[Dren]

Stuff.

That sounds like a terrible approach.

It is the approach they took up until Cata.  It takes casual guilds months once a new expansion or major content update happens to get to a point where they can even dip their toes into raid content.  Sure they had hard-mode in Wrath, but that wasn't enough for our casual guild either.  We didn't even start trying raids until several nerfs had gone into effect already.  Getting 10-20 active and regular people to level up / gain new items / understand the new mechanics/fights is not easy and takes hardcore type people to do quickly.  If your guild is doing it quicker than that, then you are a hardcore guild and I'm not talking about that.  2 months past a major content update, they should be introducing more and easing up the prior content (which they were doing quite well in Wrath.)

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying the idea of making all content accessible from day one, but have hard modes for the hardcore is wrong.  I'd take that too.  We are essentially saying the same thing though.  Content is too slow and casual players were pummeled at the launch and for too long after Cata launch.  As said earlier by myself and others, the 5-man content is too long and with the random daily, all instances have to be short (we can't choose.)

I basically quite Cata for the same reason I quite Everquest back in the day.  I got to a point where I felt like I HAD to spend at least 3 hours per game session or I might as well not play at all.  Prior to that I could log in for 30 minutes and still feel like I accomplished something even if it was small.  I wasn't getting that in Cata.

[Sheepherder]

I am pretty sure it would be easier to just level at that point. 

Don't tell me you'd look at the quest saying "20 bear asses, 5 silver" and not hit the "Skip this shit, just give me the exp" button.  The point would be to encourage people to go exhaust all the content in the leveling game before they start getting free 85's.

[Paelos]

Today in FUCK YOU CATA, I'M OUT! Salt just can't be bothered anymore. He's gonna sell his truegold and then he's done.

[Rendakor]

It's even clear that they intended to do so, since the head enchants are BoA, they just still require the rep to use them.

That hasn't been the case for five months.  Ones bought before 4.0.6 still have the requirement on them, but you can't buy those anymore, just the no-reputation-requirement ones.

Oh wow, I didn't know that, thanks. Atlas Loot still links to the BoA one, and I've always just used that to check things.

[Ingmar]

I am pretty sure it would be easier to just level at that point. 

Don't tell me you'd look at the quest saying "20 bear asses, 5 silver" and not hit the "Skip this shit, just give me the exp" button.  The point would be to encourage people to go exhaust all the content in the leveling game before they start getting free 85's.

I am pretty sure her point is your idea is about 10,000,000 times more complicated and neckbeardy than an actual solution would need to be.

[Merusk]

It's even clear that they intended to do so, since the head enchants are BoA, they just still require the rep to use them.

That hasn't been the case for five months.  Ones bought before 4.0.6 still have the requirement on them, but you can't buy those anymore, just the no-reputation-requirement ones.

Oh wow, I didn't know that, thanks. Atlas Loot still links to the BoA one, and I've always just used that to check things.

IIRC AL looks at your cache for the popup info.. you need to purge. PURGE.

[Ingmar]

The shoulder enchants are the annoying ones, since the vendor they're on really *is* gated behind quest content (you don't even get to neutral with Therazane until you finish off the other fragment-of-the-World-Pillar quest chains) , you have to get exalted to get the good ones instead of just revered, and they're still BOP.

[Rendakor]

IIRC AL looks at your cache for the popup info.. you need to purge. PURGE.

Is there an in game button for doing this, or do I have to go deleting files somewhere?

Or did I just fall into the sarchasm?

[caladein]

It's an AtlasLoot problem: it's still referencing the pre-4.0.6 ones as of the current version. I sent a tweet to the developer about it and they say it'll be fixed in the next version.

[Sjofn]

I am pretty sure it would be easier to just level at that point. 

Don't tell me you'd look at the quest saying "20 bear asses, 5 silver" and not hit the "Skip this shit, just give me the exp" button.  The point would be to encourage people to go exhaust all the content in the leveling game before they start getting free 85's.

I am pretty sure her point is your idea is about 10,000,000 times more complicated and neckbeardy than an actual solution would need to be.

Do you know me or what? 

[Setanta]

That hasn't been the case for five months.  Ones bought before 4.0.6 still have the requirement on them, but you can't buy those anymore, just the no-reputation-requirement ones.

Shoulder's piss me off. I've ground Therazane to exalted 4 times - I'll be dammed if I'll do it on another 2 85s. I wish Blizzard would make these BoA.

[sinij]

I am really curious if Blizzard intends/plans for all players to level multiple classes to max level every expansion.

[Sheepherder]

I am pretty sure her point is your idea is about 10,000,000 times more complicated and neckbeardy than an actual solution would need to be.

I've actually pondered that one for a while, and just about every other option I considered had negative externalities.

Starting the player at level 40?  They have no clue what the fuck they're doing, they would have a hell of a time getting the character ready to play, and you just cut off 2/3 of the new leveling content while leaving the old shit in place.

Grant free max level characters after leveling a few?  Like #1, but more of a clusterfuck, and you know that the person is going to be pissed when they change their mind on which class they want and they blew their freebie.

Multiply experience gains?  Only if you like seeing Sjofn rage when she can't get XP for completing a zone.

[Sjofn]

Seeing me rage ... what? I'm perfectly happy to wander off once shit turns grey to me. However, 1-60 is not the problem. It's the older expansion shit no one wants to do right now.

[Ingmar]

I am pretty sure her point is your idea is about 10,000,000 times more complicated and neckbeardy than an actual solution would need to be.

I've actually pondered that one for a while, and just about every other option I considered had negative externalities.

Starting the player at level 40?  They have no clue what the fuck they're doing, they would have a hell of a time getting the character ready to play, and you just cut off 2/3 of the new leveling content while leaving the old shit in place.

Grant free max level characters after leveling a few?  Like #1, but more of a clusterfuck, and you know that the person is going to be pissed when they change their mind on which class they want and they blew their freebie.

Multiply experience gains?  Only if you like seeing Sjofn rage when she can't get XP for completing a zone.

None of those things would be as annoying as having a 'free levels' system where you actually still have to walk around to every quest giver and talk to them. 

[Paelos]

Yes, we're trying to simplify the problem, not make it more tedious.

[Simond]

I'll say it a little clearer this time: 1 - 60 is, on the whole, the best content currently in the game. Letting people skip past that would be stupid.

[Paelos]

I'll say it a little clearer this time: 1 - 60 is, on the whole, the best content currently in the game. Letting people skip past that would be stupid.

I'll say it again. Nobody cares. This is an MMO. IT'S NOT ABOUT THE FUCKING JOURNEY!

Blizzard was retarded in the first place for forgetting that principle.

[Lakov_Sanite]

I'll say it a little clearer this time: 1 - 60 is, on the whole, the best content currently in the game. Letting people skip past that would be stupid.

I'll say it again. Nobody cares. This is an MMO. IT'S NOT ABOUT THE FUCKING JOURNEY!

Blizzard was retarded in the first place for forgetting that principle.

Sorry, you're just wrong.


The problem is not the journey, the journey is great.....for new players.  Most people who've never played before who recently got into wow after cataclysm really enjoyed the levelling process.

The problem is when you have to start slogging alts through the same 85 levels, especially 70-85 where the content starts narrowing and you cant take as many alternate paths. Then, once you do get to the end game, you find out there's not much you CAN do unless you want to be a serious raider or pvp'er.  Sure you could get heroics to get better gear but really, what would you even use the gear for? Once you've seen all the heroics once you're done with them.

[Sjofn]

Eh, making numbers higher gear-wise is enough for some people, even if they never intend to raid. And currently you would do the normal heroics to gear up for the troll heroics.

The big thing for me, though, is indeed the 60-85 journey. Outland is just straight up shitty compared to everything else in the game, WotLK has multiple paths through but we all JUST FINISHED doing it to death, and Cataclysm's 80-85 stuff has zones that are too goddamn long, and there's not nearly the flexibility for leveling through it that would help alleviate it. AND they apparently want people to repeat the fucking rep grinds for every single goddamn alt. That is a huge mistake.

I'd take something like once you're exalted with a faction, your alts start at revered or some shit before a faster journey to 85.

[Setanta]

It'd be nice to see Guild rep take a similar path. I have 1/6 of my 85s on a Phoenix and would love a few more but the guild died and I can't bring myself to grind dailies just for the mount. OFC Blizz has locked you into the guild because of the guild rep system.

A better option would be to drop you say 15% of your rep every time you guild hop I suppose but I'm too annoyed with the system to think it through.

[Paelos]

The problem is not the journey, the journey is great.....for new players.  Most people who've never played before who recently got into wow after cataclysm really enjoyed the levelling process.

That would have been a great idea in the first expansion, or even the second. By the third, you can't possibly believe the journey still matters. If you don't plan well and put the emphasis on your endgame 6 years into your game, you're an idiot.

[WindupAtheist]

Just make Widgets of +1 Level a purchasable, stackable thing at endgame. Then use them as a carrot or a points-sink in whatever way you want. Give those random dungeon tank-bags a shot at one, sell them for heroic points, whatever.

"Oh noes some guy might save up like 80 widgets and level a class without knowing how to play it!"

Bitch please, that's 99% of everyone who plays WoW, facerolling quests to cap without even knowing what all the buttons do. They'll learn, or not.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Don't confuse what I'm saying, it's not that they shouldn't focus on the endgame as new players are going to be fewer and fewer but to a new player the leveling experience is still top notch.  For Alts it's a chore but there's no great need to rush brand new people into the endgame, even for a complete newbie levelling takes a couple months at worst.

That said it would have been better if they focused less on revamping the world but they were likely planning on a ton of née players that never showed up.

[Sheepherder]

Seeing me rage ... what? I'm perfectly happy to wander off once shit turns grey to me. However, 1-60 is not the problem. It's the older expansion shit no one wants to do right now.

Hmm, maybe I'm thinking of someone else.  I remember someone commenting that leveling is too fast right now because the last quests in a zone usually end up greyed out.

The "run to the quest giver, hit the skip button" I suggested because people cruising through the old zones is a good thing in and of itself, because it keeps them from fagging up Stormwind trade chat and might get them to stumble upon something new or that they remember fondly.

In any case, this solves the exact issue you're talking about: as soon as you do the quest, you can auto-complete it on other characters.  So all the 1-60 shit is new stuff they can't just skip unless it's been recycled, and all of TBC and Wrath is probably skippable for anyone who so wishes.  It also has the advantage of letting a completely new person re-roll to a Mage if they don't like the way Warrior is treating them and be accelerated through the levels they've already done.

[Sheepherder]

There's some other shit I've contemplated that also would help, such as:

- As an alternate to my first idea: server-wide restrictions on how many daily quests you can do, but you can get that gold questing on an alt. (because dailies are a fucking horrible idea only slightly better than not having them)

- Being able to tab between two characters, so you can have your main waiting for heroics while you grind boars on your alt.

- Scrap the BoA system, and just have some sort of account-wide system that allows characters with a certain rating or slots unlocked grab free variable level gear off of a quartermaster (so BoA gear doesn't clutter up your bank, is transferable between servers, and can be chucked when you don't need it anymore without you losing access to it).

- The ilevel equivalent of full suits of Epic quality BoA gear, but with most of their stat investments being in proc enchantments that don't work in PvP.

[Selby]

- Scrap the BoA system, and just have some sort of account-wide system that allows characters with a certain rating or slots unlocked grab free variable level gear off of a quartermaster (so BoA gear doesn't clutter up your bank, is transferable between servers, and can be chucked when you don't need it anymore without you losing access to it).

I really like this idea.  I've ground out a ton of BoA gear, but it's only on one server and I'm full of 80's and 85's there.  So it does me no good.  It would make the leveling experience better if they implemented something similar to this.