Cracks starting to show?

[Shrike]

Orbs also need to be for sale.

I now have 9 of them doing dick.

This. Certaily this. Hell, I have one on my JC (before the drop mod) and it's utterly worthless on her. Hell, put them with the JP goods at a 1k a crack and I'd be buying them.

Right now the only thing I have to spend JP on are the 1-80 BoA items. I"ve been buying a second set of melee weapons for different enchants. One set for before 60 and one set for after 60.

[Xanthippe]

I skip everything unless directly requested that a person is looking for an upgrade item on a boss. However, each dps gets one pick. "I need upgrades off all of them" is not acceptable unless you a friend of mine I'm helping out.

The more you post, the more I realise I don't ever want to play WoW with you.  You're kind of a dick.

Like, a real dick.

There are plenty worse.

I think he's just been primarily a tank for far too long.  Playing a dps as a main would do wonders for this attitude, especially if he was primarily a dps signing up for pug heroics on a daily basis.

[Xanthippe]

That being said, if they're a whiney dps from another server that wants to complain about my approach, they barely qualify above an NPC in my mind. I have no attachment to those folks, period, and there's always another one in line I don't have to worry about.

Oh, wait a minute.  Nevermind, you're right, Ironwood.  Carry on.

[Xanthippe]

I didn't say they didn't care about non-Raiders... I said they can't really see us as anything but almost-Raiders.

Their idea of caring for us is what we disagree about.

I would concur with that assessment. The designers don't want you to stop at heroics. They want to create all the raiding content for use by the vast majority of their population. I think they do consider your position, but they have no idea how to service your group in a timely manner that wouldn't cost them a piece of the larger whole.

If this were so, then why hasn't Blizzard instituted pug raids?

[SurfD]

I didn't say they didn't care about non-Raiders... I said they can't really see us as anything but almost-Raiders.

Their idea of caring for us is what we disagree about.

I would concur with that assessment. The designers don't want you to stop at heroics. They want to create all the raiding content for use by the vast majority of their population. I think they do consider your position, but they have no idea how to service your group in a timely manner that wouldn't cost them a piece of the larger whole.

If this were so, then why hasn't Blizzard instituted pug raids?

Pretty sure they have said they are working on that.  They probably just have to hammer out issues with the dungeon finder forming balanced groups at the 10 / 25 person level.

[Setanta]

If this were so, then why hasn't Blizzard instituted pug raids?

My thoughts:

a) Blizzard devs still have vestiges left of EQ syndrome
b) Blizzard are still struggling with the concept that casuals pay the bills not bleeding edge raiders.
c) It's difficult to do and the groundwork for it is being laid. The game certainly is a lot more raid friendly than it was in Vanilla.

I'm not being sarcastic, the devs surely understand that WoW is no longer the golden age of MMOs, it's just that nothing has ever come close to threatening it. In a world of "WoW killers" no game has ever stood out for more than 6 months or been able to stop people from coming back to WoW. The sooner they break their habit of telling the player base what they will like and listen to the players the better for subscriptions. Yes BC dungeons were possibly the better designed and people look back with rose coloured glasses, but WotLK changed the way that people played WoW and as such Blizz needs to reach a happier medium between the two expansions that allows for pug raids.

[caladein]

The level of polish between the 1-60 and 80-85 content and raids should dissuade you of #2 immediately.  Not just the hilarious bugs and balance issues at the top-end, but for example, that getting near any corner in Bastion of Twilight is risking falling through the world.

Moreover, "bleeding edge raider" content for the past two expansions has come on-the-cheap via Heroic modes (or achievements) with the exception of Algalon and Sinestra.

[Ingmar]

I didn't say they didn't care about non-Raiders... I said they can't really see us as anything but almost-Raiders.

Their idea of caring for us is what we disagree about.

I would concur with that assessment. The designers don't want you to stop at heroics. They want to create all the raiding content for use by the vast majority of their population. I think they do consider your position, but they have no idea how to service your group in a timely manner that wouldn't cost them a piece of the larger whole.

If this were so, then why hasn't Blizzard instituted pug raids?

They've answered this numerous times. Basically it boils down to the basic group finder functionality doesn't work very well for putting together raids because the lineup needs are stricter and there are a lot more lockout issues to deal with. They've said they're working on it but it might not happen.

[Maledict]

My thoughts:

a) Blizzard devs still have vestiges left of EQ syndrome
b) Blizzard are still struggling with the concept that casuals pay the bills not bleeding edge raiders.
c) It's difficult to do and the groundwork for it is being laid. The game certainly is a lot more raid friendly than it was in Vanilla.

I'm not being sarcastic, the devs surely understand that WoW is no longer the golden age of MMOs, it's just that nothing has ever come close to threatening it. In a world of "WoW killers" no game has ever stood out for more than 6 months or been able to stop people from coming back to WoW. The sooner they break their habit of telling the player base what they will like and listen to the players the better for subscriptions. Yes BC dungeons were possibly the better designed and people look back with rose coloured glasses, but WotLK changed the way that people played WoW and as such Blizz needs to reach a happier medium between the two expansions that allows for pug raids.

I'm sorry, but what a load of tosh.

Blizzard gave up EQ syndrome YEARS ago. I honestly don't think people throwing that term around have *any* idea what it means, or even played EQ. Seriously, it's ludicrous to even begin comparing the two at this stage. WoW has been refined and refined to be more accessable every expansion, and just because *one* bit of content is slightly harder than the last time around when we outgeared it by 3 full tiers doesn't mean we're suddenly back in EQ land.

Also, if you think only "bleeding edge" raiders raid, you are nuts. You're ignoring the extremely large population of raiders who aren't hardcore yet somehow manage to raid every week and have fun. There's a lot of us.

Seriously, the amount of hyperbole in these forums is just insane.

(It's also worth noting that the current tier of raid content is, apart from the end bosses, *extremely* easy. We killed Magmaw on our first ever pull, we killed Atramades in under an hour, and we're a casual guild. Yes, Twilight council / Cho'gall  / Nef / Al'akir will take some time before PuGs are downing them, but the majority of bosses are ICC level currently. They're just more fun and better designed than ICC was. Anyone claiming that the current raid content has been made ultra hard or innaccessible is nuts.)

[Paelos]

That being said, if they're a whiney dps from another server that wants to complain about my approach, they barely qualify above an NPC in my mind. I have no attachment to those folks, period, and there's always another one in line I don't have to worry about.

Oh, wait a minute.  Nevermind, you're right, Ironwood.  Carry on.

I thought it was a gem too, myself. 

[Ironwood]

"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me"

Matthew 25:40

That's right, Monkey, you just cockblocked Jesus from getting his new gloves.

[Simond]

I'm sorry, but what a load of tosh.

Blizzard gave up EQ syndrome YEARS ago. I honestly don't think people throwing that term around have *any* idea what it means, or even played EQ. Seriously, it's ludicrous to even begin comparing the two at this stage. WoW has been refined and refined to be more accessable every expansion, and just because *one* bit of content is slightly harder than the last time around when we outgeared it by 3 full tiers doesn't mean we're suddenly back in EQ land.

Also, if you think only "bleeding edge" raiders raid, you are nuts. You're ignoring the extremely large population of raiders who aren't hardcore yet somehow manage to raid every week and have fun. There's a lot of us.

Seriously, the amount of hyperbole in these forums is just insane.

(It's also worth noting that the current tier of raid content is, apart from the end bosses, *extremely* easy. We killed Magmaw on our first ever pull, we killed Atramades in under an hour, and we're a casual guild. Yes, Twilight council / Cho'gall  / Nef / Al'akir will take some time before PuGs are downing them, but the majority of bosses are ICC level currently. They're just more fun and better designed than ICC was. Anyone claiming that the current raid content has been made ultra hard or innaccessible is nuts.)

Psst, the reason raiding is being cockblocked isn't the raiding tier itself, it's the utterly fucking retarded "working as intented" heroic system that is supposed to gear you up for raids. There are guilds out there basically en masse dragging people who've finished normals through raids to gear them up, because it's easier, quicker and more fun than doing heroics.

That's the problem, that's what Blizzard needs to be fixing.

[kildorn]

It's always been faster/preferable to drag someone through farm raid content than run heroics on them, gearing speed wise. In wrath I had a few characters I leveled to raid with, who went right from "ding, 80!" to "hello Naxx!" and got 4-5 drops right off the bat because nobody else needed much from it anymore.

I think the problem with the heroics is essentially there's still a huge gear jump between heroic blue and raid epics. The stat differences between say, my 349 DK and someone's full raid DK seem.. excessive (10% more avoidance, another 5 mastery, and a good 30-40k hp)

[Maledict]

Umm, it's less of a gear jump than any previous expansion. Thanks to the colour change, all you get going from raiding is a 13 ilevel leap. When you went from heroics to raids in TBC or Wrath you went 13 ilevels PLUS a change from blue to purple so got the extra ilevel points. This is actually a smaller gap in gear quality than previous expansions.

[kildorn]

Umm, it's less of a gear jump than any previous expansion. Thanks to the colour change, all you get going from raiding is a 13 ilevel leap. When you went from heroics to raids in TBC or Wrath you went 13 ilevels PLUS a change from blue to purple so got the extra ilevel points. This is actually a smaller gap in gear quality than previous expansions.

IIRC, in release Wrath you could buy 10 man raid gear via Emblems, and the last boss in heroics dropped 10 man raid equivalents. There's more of a gear jump in Cata because without setting foot in a raid, you're capped lower than you used to be. Wrath 5H gave you ilvl 200 gear, Wrath 10N gave you ilvl 200 gear (at the first tier)

[Rendakor]

Going from Heroics into 25m raids was the same jump in LK as in Cata. The jump from Heroics to 10ms is larger now, since 10m raids drop 25m level gear. This assumes that one was fully geared out in the best heroic gear in both scenarios (LK: Full ilvl 200 purples, Cata: Full ilvl 346 blues).

[Modern Angel]

Read what he's saying. Prior to Cataclysm, the ilevel formulas were different between green and blue and purple. Now *there is no difference in the formula regardless of color*. Color is just a function of rarity; in fact, they're talking about making current raid tier gear blue if you get it post content patch. Same items, same ilevel, just blue. Purple means nothing now, it did in WLK.

EDIT: Rendakator is closer to the point but still off. It took substantially more effort to gear yourself in ilevel 200 purples *just* from Heroics than it does to get ilevel 346 Heroic blues due to abundance of gear.

[Rendakor]

It took more heroics to be fully geared out in LK than it does in Cata, yes. However, even at launch you could do 2-3 LK heroics in the time one Cata heroic takes.

[Paelos]

"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me"

Matthew 25:40

That's right, Monkey, you just cockblocked Jesus from getting his new gloves.

That's a new one. Quoting scripture to get loot. I wonder what Jesus would feel about intangible property? 

[Modern Angel]

It took more heroics to be fully geared out in LK than it does in Cata, yes. However, even at launch you could do 2-3 LK heroics in the time one Cata heroic takes.

So... three purples scattered across classes versus nine to twelve Heroic blues? Even if the speed estimate were true (it's not) that's still substantially slower.

[Rendakor]

LK Heroics took ~20-45m in PUGs. Cata heroics can range from 40-90m, and thats assuming they aren't wipefests. You also have to remember back in LK you ran the heroics you needed, not whatever random one the dungeon finder fed you. So every heroic you had a 33% chance to get your purple upgrade (assuming you don't have loot comp), while now you first have to hope the dungeon you rolled HAS an upgrade still. Sure, you CAN do specific dungeons, but unless you're a tank you're only making your long queue even longer.

[Ironwood]

"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me"

Matthew 25:40

That's right, Monkey, you just cockblocked Jesus from getting his new gloves.

That's a new one. Quoting scripture to get loot. I wonder what Jesus would feel about intangible property? 

He was all for giving up Earthly posessions :  Just hands off his Sandals of Water Walking +Spirit

[kildorn]

Read what he's saying. Prior to Cataclysm, the ilevel formulas were different between green and blue and purple. Now *there is no difference in the formula regardless of color*. Color is just a function of rarity; in fact, they're talking about making current raid tier gear blue if you get it post content patch. Same items, same ilevel, just blue. Purple means nothing now, it did in WLK.

EDIT: Rendakator is closer to the point but still off. It took substantially more effort to gear yourself in ilevel 200 purples *just* from Heroics than it does to get ilevel 346 Heroic blues due to abundance of gear.

Ignoring color:

5H's in Wrath gave you access to the same ilvl loot as 10N's in Wrath.

In Cata:

5H's give you access to 13 ilvls south of 10Ns, with a bonus 10N item every ~25 days.

How are you not seeing that the gear difference is larger in Cata than it was in Wrath? I'm not saying "ZOMG I NEED PURPLE", I'm saying "hey, these ilvls are vastly different compared to the difference I was facing in Wrath"

[Rendakor]

You can't ignore color. Ilvl 200 Purples > Ilvl 200 blues.

[Oban]

Considering that even a single strand of fiber optic cable using only one lambda can carry in excess of ten gigabits per second, that is a lot of epics that can be passed through the eye of a needle.

[kildorn]

You can't ignore color. Ilvl 200 Purples > Ilvl 200 blues.

But it doesn't really matter in Wrath world, where ilvl200 purples were available easily from 5H. The argument I saw was that color doesn't matter anymore so stop caring about purple. To which my response is: ilvl to ilvl, comparatively, Wrath was easier to gear up to raid levels for the 10man raiding crew.

[Rendakor]

But the wrath system was stupid because if you did enough heroics you got into 10m raids and had very few upgrades. It's harder in Cata both because the loot in 10m raids is better, and the loot from heroics/badges is worse.

[Modern Angel]

But it doesn't really matter in Wrath world, where ilvl200 purples were available easily from 5H. The argument I saw was that color doesn't matter anymore so stop caring about purple. To which my response is: ilvl to ilvl, comparatively, Wrath was easier to gear up to raid levels for the 10man raiding crew.

In everything prior to Cataclysm color mattered because the formulas were different between blue and purple when determining quality. So a purple 200 had more points than a blue 200 and by more than the 13 ilevels which separates the two now. In Cataclysm the formula is the same regardless of color, so a purple 346 would be the same as a blue 346 (for instance. THAT is why Maledict is saying that the jump in power is smaller. It IS smaller.

[K9]

You guys are doing a great job of arguing two superficially similar but fundamentally different things, and both being right at the same time.

[pxib]

What I find fascinating is that, after a superficial romp through the new content, this is the whole game. This argument here: "Where is the best gear and what is the easiest way to get it?" There are a few challenges arrayed, but most of them are social. Not so much "How do I beat this boss?" as "How do I find between four and nine people with brains and communication skills?"

So that I can get the better gear, so that I can get the better gear. So that I can quit and wait for the next content dump.

There were only five levels this time, and Blizzard has streamlined the leveling, so it looks like everybody sailed quickly through and has crashed into the endgame in record time. Unlike the streamlined endgame that latter days Wrath had, this one seems to be causing a real traffic jam. Plus Blizzard has provided BETTER BUFFS to the people who join BIGGER GUILDS so the tight little social groups are breaking up in order to disappear into larger crowds. One hopes they find four to nine people with brains and communication skills there before they cancel their subscriptions.

[Maledict]

I'm really note sure what your point is, but levelling took about 4 days less than it did going from 70 to 80 in wrath. There's a lot *more* content at max level than there was in Wrath considering that Wrath's main raiding content was recycled junk, and as can be seen from this forum the difficulty and time taken to gear up through heroics apparently is longer.

(I disagree on this point, byt obviously some folks feel it used to be much faster).

[caladein]

What I find fascinating is that, after a superficial romp through the new content, this is the whole game. This argument here: "Where is the best gear and what is the easiest way to get it?" There are a few challenges arrayed, but most of them are social. Not so much "How do I beat this boss?" as "How do I find between four and nine people with brains and communication skills?"

So that I can get the better gear, so that I can get the better gear. So that I can quit and wait for the next content dump.

There were only five levels this time, and Blizzard has streamlined the leveling, so it looks like everybody sailed quickly through and has crashed into the endgame in record time. Unlike the streamlined endgame that latter days Wrath had, this one seems to be causing a real traffic jam. Plus Blizzard has provided BETTER BUFFS to the people who join BIGGER GUILDS so the tight little social groups are breaking up in order to disappear into larger crowds. One hopes they find four to nine people with brains and communication skills there before they cancel their subscriptions.

Guild leveling is a procession for all but the smallest guilds.  If your guild is big enough to field a guild group for end-game content (be it raids or rated BGs) you're probably capping your guild experience without any special effort.  The only advantage larger guilds have is with the last few, uncapped, levels, and achievements.  The important ones having been nerfed already down to reasonable values.

As for "get better gear to get better gear", that's all WoW PvE has been since launch.  The main differences are you don't have to start at the very beginning anymore and there's very little content that is hardcore-only in its entirety.

[SurfD]

There were only five levels this time, and Blizzard has streamlined the leveling, so it looks like everybody sailed quickly through and has crashed into the endgame in record time. Unlike the streamlined endgame that latter days Wrath had, this one seems to be causing a real traffic jam. Plus Blizzard has provided BETTER BUFFS to the people who join BIGGER GUILDS so the tight little social groups are breaking up in order to disappear into larger crowds. One hopes they find four to nine people with brains and communication skills there before they cancel their subscriptions.

Saying there are only 5 levels instead of 10 is misleading.  While the obvious direct numerical comparison is there, if you look at the actual EXP quantities needed to hit the new max, or even the relative time it takes the average person to hit the new max, they are very close to the gap between 70 and 80.   Yes, it feels like a shorter amount of time, but that is mainly a relative thing.   I also second the opinion that there is a lot more interesting things to spend your time on when you cap 85 then there was back when Wrath launched and you capped 80.

[Shrike]

It was shorter. My employment situaion dictates my play times. I work nights, so I have about 4-5 hours a night to play. I work weekends, so I essentially only have one day off. Every week is the same.

In LK it took me just over two weeks to hit 80. I averaged about half a level a night. The last couple of levels took three days each. Cata took me five days to hit 85. One level a day, and I probably could have shaved a day off of it as it was. Same time played per night, more or less. Quite frankly, I was surprised it went this quickly, but it was very easy to get a level a night. Three to four hours at the most. I did skip Vash, but did everydamnedthing in Uldum, and that zone was slow, slow, slow (but fun) because of the constant cut scenes. I hit 85 in Uldum, maybe 3/4 or a bit more of the way to the achievement.

Leveling was faster.

[Minvaren]

LK 70-80 was (far) slower for me than Cata 80-85 as well.

I attribute this to two things in Cata - flying from the get-go and streamlining.  Basically, LK had you running around more and slower.