Job thread

[Merusk]

split from Bob's Sub-Fora:

Well, the Boomers not retiring and moving out of the way are creating TONS of missed opportunities for employment. This generation isn't living in their parents houses because they WANT to. They're doing so because by and large their parents won't stop fucking them over.

The youngest boomers are 52 this year, but even the oldest at 70. There's a whole lost decade+ of people who can't work.

I don't fully agree (if we're generalizing things) about the living-at-home stuff, since it enables victimization/persecution-complexes.  But I do think that how hiring is done in IT is increasingly shitty.  And that can't be attributed to useless Boomers.  For example, this resonates:  F*** You, I Quit — Hiring Is Broken

Tech hiring is broken. That's been obvious for over a decade. That doesn't mean hiring everywhere is broken. The rest of the economy seems to have its shit sorted. Probably because they aren't as new or HR understands them and what the requirements are. Oh, and unlike Tech bosses aren't likely to be small-minded introverts who look at people management and hiring as 'bullshit they have to deal with.'

Each sector looks at the big guys - Google, MS, Apple here - for examples and mimics them. Except, as that article points-out, in tech the big guys can afford to do stupid shit because they have mountains of resumes to fall back on. If a stupid hiring practice isn't working-out they can dump the hire and the practice and fill it within a few days.

[Venkman]

CT is no more New Enland than Long Island is.

But yes on Logan. Fuck Logan. I'll take a layover (always through DC or south) from Green over getting to Logan any day.

And yes on transplants. You can't not from NE and appreciate NE.

[Paelos]

split from Bob's Sub-Fora:

Well, the Boomers not retiring and moving out of the way are creating TONS of missed opportunities for employment. This generation isn't living in their parents houses because they WANT to. They're doing so because by and large their parents won't stop fucking them over.

The youngest boomers are 52 this year, but even the oldest at 70. There's a whole lost decade+ of people who can't work.

I don't fully agree (if we're generalizing things) about the living-at-home stuff, since it enables victimization/persecution-complexes.  But I do think that how hiring is done in IT is increasingly shitty.  And that can't be attributed to useless Boomers.  For example, this resonates:  F*** You, I Quit — Hiring Is Broken

Tech hiring is broken. That's been obvious for over a decade. That doesn't mean hiring everywhere is broken. The rest of the economy seems to have its shit sorted. Probably because they aren't as new or HR understands them and what the requirements are. Oh, and unlike Tech bosses aren't likely to be small-minded introverts who look at people management and hiring as 'bullshit they have to deal with.'

Each sector looks at the big guys - Google, MS, Apple here - for examples and mimics them. Except, as that article points-out, in tech the big guys can afford to do stupid shit because they have mountains of resumes to fall back on. If a stupid hiring practice isn't working-out they can dump the hire and the practice and fill it within a few days.

I read the story and chuckled. Nobody in accounting in an interview asks you to get up on a whiteboard and answer debit and credit questions on how to do a like-kind exchange or the finer points of bond discounting. Mostly because of you never do it in the job, they assume you will research it and figure it out.

I've done a test once in my life when I worked for a temp agency to assess my proficiency. But after I passed my CPA nobody quizzes you. They try to get a read on your personality and see if you fit the office. That's the most important thing in accounting besides ability to learn software.

[Yegolev]

There's no test for IT crap.

[HaemishM]

If they really wanted to test for IT proficiency, they should put you in a room with C-level dickheads trying to read their email and see how long it takes before you choke one of them bitches out with your pocket protector.

[Samwise]

There's no test for IT crap.

Exactly.  In pretty much any sort of tech position, my experience is that 90% of applicants have resumes that are 90% fictional when it comes to representing their capabilities.

[Surlyboi]

If they really wanted to test for IT proficiency, they should put you in a room with C-level dickheads trying to read their email and see how long it takes before you choke one of them bitches out with your pocket protector.

I'd fail every time.

[Yegolev]

I think if someone is a (1) good problem solver and (2) doesn't cause drama at work, that is a great IT candidate.  Everything else is a minor detail.  Did you already learn <LANGUAGE_1>?  Then you can learn <LANGUAGE_2>.  Unless you want to be one of those uncooperative types that love <LANGUAGE_1> and deride others who prefer <WHATEVER>, which means you're already failing both (1) & (2).

Keep learning, solve problems, don't be a dick.  YOU'RE HIRED.

[HaemishM]

The funny part is that most of those IT tech interview puzzles sound like shit you should NEVER know by memory - that's what Google is for. Hell, at least 30% of my job when I'm laying out web pages is me Googling one particular CSS call about how to make this fucking element layout like the fucking anal-retentive graphic designer who used goddamn Indesign to layout the web page wants it to look.

[Surlyboi]

Pretty much this.

The people that can remember all of that shit and recall it at a moment's notice have usually sacrificed all of the brain power for social skills to retain that kind of shit. And while having one or two of them can be amazing, an entire team of those people is a nightmare.

[Chimpy]

Google/Facebook/etc want those people.

If Real Genius were made today, Lazlo would probably have snapped after realizing what he was coding for one of the big "free online services" companies. 

[Surlyboi]

Another reason I'm glad I stayed at the house that Steve built.

[schild]

Another reason I'm glad I stayed at the house that Steve built.

Even if they seem to have a case of early onset Alzheimers?

[Yegolev]

There isn't any reason to memorize anything these days other than for reasons of speed.  Also, in some areas, the things you memorized a year ago are completely useless today.  I learned in middle school that you are better off understanding the mechanisms under mathematics rather than memorizing anything.  Also keep notes.  Or search online.

[Selby]

They try to get a read on your personality and see if you fit the office. That's the most important thing in accounting besides ability to learn software.

It's the same way in engineering.  Once you've gotten past that first job out of college it's presumed you aren't a complete moron and wasting your time testing you on things you can Google or reference in a book is exactly that: wasting your time.  When I went to work for the big west coast research university I was told that by an older gentleman ("you obviously have your degree so asking about your grades is an insult") and another one who asked me about 3 phase power distribution did it solely to see if I had any familiarity at all ("I'm not asking for math, I assume you'll get that out of a book if you have to. Just give me an overview").  The only real hard job interviews I had was at that same research university they made me give a 45m powerpoint presentation to the entire department demonstrating that yes, I had actually had a project or job function before, and yes, I did know how to relate and convey that to people even if I didn't do all the work myself.  They liked me so much I got to do it twice on 2 different subjects.

The funny part is that most of those IT tech interview puzzles sound like shit you should NEVER know by memory - that's what Google is for.

My boss and I joke that we look technical things up on Google and wikipedia first before we go home and look them up in the book.  I actually got my first IT job in 2000 because the hiring manager asked me a specific question about a certain IP protocol.  I told him I had no clue off the top of my head, but I had 5 different search engines I liked to reference and I was pretty sure I could look up the answer and figure it out quickly.  He smiled and said that's what he wants his IT staff to be able to do.  He was tired of guys who got the deer in the headlight look when asked about something new and refused to figure out things they hadn't seen before.

[Surlyboi]

Another reason I'm glad I stayed at the house that Steve built.

Even if they seem to have a case of early onset Alzheimers?

Yup. Not all of us have forgotten how we got where we are. it's just a little harder to do the job lately. The new team they threw me at is giving me hope though.

[Khaldun]

Basically I think there are a very small subset of jobs where on Day 1 you had better know a lot of very specific shit and have practiced that shit in as many not-quite-real-world-yet situations as possible.

Surgeon. Jet-fighter pilot. A few others.

Everything else, what you need is:

a) Be a good problem-solver in general. Be able to think a situation through and have some sense of how to get information about it. Know how to ask questions and figure out what the goals are.
b) Be emotionally intelligent overall unless what you're doing doesn't require interacting with other human beings much.
c) Be at least somewhat able to communicate both what you're thinking and to accurately relay what other people said. Ideally both in writing and verbally, but at least one.
d) Don't duck responsibility, but don't take on more than you can deal with if other people are dependent on you.
e) Don't make working life worse for other people in any way.
f) Be basically honest and more or less trustworthy.

And I honestly do think that most of these are things you can learn and improve at if you're not great at them already--you don't pop out of the womb with these skills. But in 90% of the work people do, this is all you need to show up on Day 1 and grow into doing a good job reasonably quickly. If I was sure someone was good on all six of these, I'd hire them before a person with specific skills matching a job who I didn't get a sense of in these terms.

[Yegolev]

A counter to that might be when hiring contractors for a project.  The need to hit the ground running could require technical expertise as primary.

[Khaldun]

You know, as long as the top guy knows his shit, I don't mind if he's got a padawan somewhere in the mix. But yeah. In a lot of contexts, I will cut someone slack if they're learning on the job as long as there's a grizzled oldster on call. I had to get an IV when I had pneumonia and as usual they couldn't find my veins--that's been true since I was a teenager. Always takes a tough old nurse or PD to do it. But I will tolerate 2-3 tries by the n00bs because how else are they gonna learn?

[Yegolev]

Heh, I'm the same way.  Except with contractors.

For a while I was really feeling underwater learning all this new crap, but recently it dawned on me that no one practicing DevOps has a grip on anything.  Consequently I now feel like I'm doing pretty well.

[lamaros]

Basically I think there are a very small subset of jobs where on Day 1 you had better know a lot of very specific shit and have practiced that shit in as many not-quite-real-world-yet situations as possible.

Surgeon. Jet-fighter pilot. A few others.

Everything else, what you need is:

a) Be a good problem-solver in general. Be able to think a situation through and have some sense of how to get information about it. Know how to ask questions and figure out what the goals are.
b) Be emotionally intelligent overall unless what you're doing doesn't require interacting with other human beings much.
c) Be at least somewhat able to communicate both what you're thinking and to accurately relay what other people said. Ideally both in writing and verbally, but at least one.
d) Don't duck responsibility, but don't take on more than you can deal with if other people are dependent on you.
e) Don't make working life worse for other people in any way.
f) Be basically honest and more or less trustworthy.

And I honestly do think that most of these are things you can learn and improve at if you're not great at them already--you don't pop out of the womb with these skills. But in 90% of the work people do, this is all you need to show up on Day 1 and grow into doing a good job reasonably quickly. If I was sure someone was good on all six of these, I'd hire them before a person with specific skills matching a job who I didn't get a sense of in these terms.

When those doing the hiring don't have these skills they struggle to identify when others have them.

[RhyssaFireheart]

Today I have the work motivation and attention span of a gnat.

Quite possibly related to the fact that I start my required 30-day furlough as of Tuesday 6/28 and tbh, I really don't give a damn if things run smoothly while I'm out.  While it would suck for me when I return on 7/28, I sort of hope that stuff comes to pieces.  I'm fairly sure it won't, but I can hope.

I was also given the news that instead of being part of the Project Mgmt Office (PMO) when I get back, I'll be moved to the Business Mgmt Office (BMO) instead, primarily because the majority of what I do is considered "back office" work and the BMO "owns" that piece of the pie.  Neither my current manager nor who I thought was to be my new manager (PMO head) were happy about having me taken away, and I'm not very thrilled about it either.  I get along well with the PMO head and don't care for the guy in the BMO I'll be reporting to.  So this will not be fun and exciting, not the least because the other two contractors who report to him (one is my backup) share a cube and as long as we have an uneven number, I hope to stay in my cube where I am. Because I don't care how you configure it, making two people share an 8x8 cube is complete BS.

[Yegolev]

Wow, you have a cube?  Nice!

[Trippy]

Wow 32 square feet of personal space with 3 walls (shared). How luxurious. Seriously. I currently have about 20 square feet (~5' x 4') with a wall only on one side.

[Yegolev]

I'm luckily facing a corner in an open office plan, with a double-door traffic lane behind me.  It's like the office version of Elwood Blues' apartment.

"How often does the train come by?"
"So often, you won't even notice it."

We will be moving to a new building around EOY.

[schild]

Wow 32 square feet of personal space with 3 walls (shared). How luxurious. Seriously. I currently have about 20 square feet (~5' x 4') with a wall only on one side.

Did you lose out on the decadent life of working from home? Last time we talked about work you were only going to the office periodically.

[Yegolev]

I blame Yahoo.

[Trippy]

Wow 32 square feet of personal space with 3 walls (shared). How luxurious. Seriously. I currently have about 20 square feet (~5' x 4') with a wall only on one side.

Did you lose out on the decadent life of working from home? Last time we talked about work you were only going to the office periodically.

Yes.

[schild]

Wow 32 square feet of personal space with 3 walls (shared). How luxurious. Seriously. I currently have about 20 square feet (~5' x 4') with a wall only on one side.

Did you lose out on the decadent life of working from home? Last time we talked about work you were only going to the office periodically.

Yes.

Ain't that some shit.

[RhyssaFireheart]

This is not the sympathy and commiseration I was looking for.   

[Merusk]

The design teams at my old firm moved all people under Director-level to a single 5'x 2'6" table which holds either (2) 24" monitors or (1) 24" and a 24" Wacom tablet These desks are then pushed together in groups of 4 so that you have 4 people in a 10x10 area once you include seating.  

The statement was it was done "To encourage collaboration."  In reality they had no more goddamn space and needed to fit 4 more people into an area designed for 10.

So it can always get worse is really the lesson I'm pushing here.

[HaemishM]

Open floor plans. They can suck my left nut and eat my dick at the same time. Nothing like removing all sense of personal space in a place you are forced to be for 8-10 hours a goddamn day.

[lamaros]

My previous workplace was transitioning almost the whole building to 'hotdesking' just as I was leaving. In print publishing.

[KallDrexx]

I read the story and chuckled. Nobody in accounting in an interview asks you to get up on a whiteboard and answer debit and credit questions on how to do a like-kind exchange or the finer points of bond discounting. Mostly because of you never do it in the job, they assume you will research it and figure it out.

As a professional programmer I don't know if I've been lucky or it's the real trend but I've never had to deal with the stereotypical Google interviews (I would also never interview at Google or Microsoft either though).  All of my interviews have been based around my personality and going into detail about projects I've worked on in the past (which is dead simple and makes me completely not nervous at all because, well I did actually execute those projects and can describe the decisions behind them easily).

[Yegolev]

I suppose lucky.  I haven't had too many bullshit interviews, but that Google one was kinda bad.  Mostly because I got out of sorts due to phone problems and writing pseudocode into a Google Doc while being remotely judged.  In the end, I didn't want the job but it was an interesting experience.