Job thread

[Ironwood]

It's more flexible here.  Of course, then you have to accept a given value of 'here', I guess.

Mate's now in Otago from Glasgow.  That can't be bad.

[Khaldun]

That would be a good move, yes. I think the price paid for more mobility in the UK academic system are the Blair-era changes where your post is never very secure, either. Australia and I think NZ adopted a lot of those policies too, as did South Africa.

[Miasma]

This horrifies most people right?  I'm worried things might be changing where evil business people read that and feel inspired instead of disgusted.

If it requires a subscription try viewing the link in private mode or a different browser.  If that fails I will try and cut and paste the text.

[Paelos]

It's horrifying.

But it's also a case of, don't work there if you are being abused.

[Selby]

Can you do your job somewhere you'd like ?

I never thought I'd find another organization to do what I do outside of California but I did.  I don't particularly love where I live but it sure beats the overcrowded Bay Area & its insufferable rich people.  Wasn't easy though & took a lot of work.

[Merusk]

This horrifies most people right?  I'm worried things might be changing where evil business people read that and feel inspired instead of disgusted.

If it requires a subscription try viewing the link in private mode or a different browser.  If that fails I will try and cut and paste the text.

Looks like what I'd expect from a company run by high-functioning sociopaths and autistics, which are coincidentally the personalities that are most successful in the Technology field.

Sociopaths do well in design. Some of those stories could be straight out of my company. Then again my CEO also believes, "Conflict brings about innovation," and often encourages the business units compete against each other. The saving grace is we DO believe in spending time with family, where Amazon seems to see them as nothing but an impediment.

Which is amusing because I've seen some folks who've drifted in and out of these forums over the years use that exact sentiment. "Families can only hold you back"

[Yegolev]

If your goal is only to work, to rise as far as you can in any field, then of course you don't want to be distracted by anything.  The sad part comes along when you are old and lonely.  Will Bezos be old and lonely one day?

[Khaldun]

Amazon execs pretty much seem to think that the purpose of work is more work, not that you work to live.

What would scare me is if the whole suite of dumb, dystopian, future-destroying ideas spread more widely. The only way the whole thing is sustainable is if every corporation on Earth does the same shit, otherwise eventually Amazon is going to burn through every possible human being who might work with them.

[Merusk]

Most are doing the same thing. Not to mention not giving out raises that beat inflation.

A friend of mine just posted this Forbes article:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/cameronkeng/2014/06/22/employees-that-stay-in-companies-longer-than-2-years-get-paid-50-less/

That survey covered 900 companies and the average raise will be only 3%. Yeah, companies know that they can start squeezing the white collar middle-class and they'll take it. In part because Boomers can't retire since they got fucked in 2000 and 2008 and in part because there's an overload of Millennials waiting to seize upon any jobs they can.

What're you going to do. Not work? Start up your own place? Nope, you'll take it and hope you can squeeze by on your pittance. Until you can't.

[Yegolev]

I believe in the inevitability of the Backlash against any popular phenomenon.

[Paelos]

Most are doing the same thing. Not to mention not giving out raises that beat inflation.

A friend of mine just posted this Forbes article:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/cameronkeng/2014/06/22/employees-that-stay-in-companies-longer-than-2-years-get-paid-50-less/

That survey covered 900 companies and the average raise will be only 3%. Yeah, companies know that they can start squeezing the white collar middle-class and they'll take it. In part because Boomers can't retire since they got fucked in 2000 and 2008 and in part because there's an overload of Millennials waiting to seize upon any jobs they can.

What're you going to do. Not work? Start up your own place? Nope, you'll take it and hope you can squeeze by on your pittance. Until you can't.

The article is right, but if you make a jump every 2 years, your career will be only 10 years. You'll become increasingly unmarketable in that time frame because you don't even give the illusion that you're going to give the company more than 2 years, and you have to figure that the first 3 months are basically a crapshoot productivity wise while you gel with the culture.

Example, working at a small company my yearly raises were about 10-12%. Jumping to another company after 5 years? My jump was 40%. Because I was highly marketable and seen as a loyal employee for having been somewhere for 5 years.

To me, and to many who advise people like me, 5 years is the standard and then you SHOULD make a jump if you can. 2 Years makes you like like a millenial flake.

[Tannhauser]

I have an interview in Naples FL, this Thursday.  They are flying me down and paying for my hotel and car for three days.  It's a small company, I phone interviewed with the grandson of the founder, and it's exactly what I'm looking for.  I'm so pumped!

[Paelos]

I have an interview in Naples FL, this Thursday.  They are flying me down and paying for my hotel and car for three days.  It's a small company, I phone interviewed with the grandson of the founder, and it's exactly what I'm looking for.  I'm so pumped!

Cool! Small companies are awesome.

[Trippy]

To me, and to many who advise people like me, 5 years is the standard and then you SHOULD make a jump if you can. 2 Years makes you like like a millenial flake.

Not in tech.

[Trippy]

This horrifies most people right?  I'm worried things might be changing where evil business people read that and feel inspired instead of disgusted.

If it requires a subscription try viewing the link in private mode or a different browser.  If that fails I will try and cut and paste the text.

tl;dr Amazon is a horrible horrible place to work and makes grown men cry (literally).

This has been Amazon's reputation almost since the beginning so it no longer horrifies me to read stories like this. Jeff of course is now denying this is what the company is about but he's lying through his teeth.

Steve Yegge, a person well known in some programming circles for his well written rants about software and the software industry, wrote a very infamous article about Amazon that was meant for Google internal consumption only but thanks to Google+'s brain damaged permissions system got released to the public. Steve worked at Amazon for 6 1/2 years in it's early days (like 1998 - 2004 or 2005) and even though the article is mostly about what Amazon did right with regards to Web services he couldn't resist some digs at his former employer like:

6) Anyone who doesn't do this will be fired.

7) Thank you; have a nice day!

Ha, ha! You 150-odd ex-Amazon folks here will of course realize immediately that #7 was a little joke I threw in, because Bezos most definitely does not give a shit about your day.

At this point they don't even do it out of fear of being fired. I mean, they're still afraid of that; it's pretty much part of daily life there, working for the Dread Pirate Bezos and all. But they do services because they've come to understand that it's the Right Thing. There are without question pros and cons to the SOA approach, and some of the cons are pretty long. But overall it's the right thing because SOA-driven design enables Platforms.

This was coming from a very senior programmer, not your typically Amazon peon, and even he knew that place is one driven by fear since the very early days.

[Ironwood]

I find it interesting that the language Bezos uses doesn't actually deny jack shit.

Well, not interesting.  Just fucking annoying.

[Paelos]

Not in tech.

Sooo, jump more? Less?

[Trippy]

In tech it's fine if somebody moves around every 2 years or so -- it's not considered a negative anymore. 1 year or less at a job might require some investigation.

[Yegolev]

The notion of ramming punchcards into slots for 30 years and drawing a pension sure as hell doesn't exist anymore.  I'd really like to ride to retirement at TWC since it's pretty cool here, but I wouldn't be shocked to find myself working somewhere else in 2019.

[Khaldun]

I find it interesting that the language Bezos uses doesn't actually deny jack shit.

Well, not interesting.  Just fucking annoying.

Pretty much, yeah, he more or less says, "Gosh, I hope someone hasn't been mean. If someone's being mean, use the dystopian, Orwellian procedures we've established to tell someone higher up that he's being mean. And maybe we'll be mean to him."

The few counterattacks they've staged from Amazon employees interestingly come all from high-ranked engineers, which I suspect means that engineers get treated differently there (and everywhere).

[HaemishM]

"like a start up" in an established company is code for "we will work you to death, you shitty, replaceable cog".

This is absolutely true, and might also mean "and this company may or may not make it through the year." The only people who should be working at startups are people straight out of college with no experience, the owners of the company and the college drinking buddies of the owners of the company who are really there just to sponge off the success of their slightly less inbred buddies.

Also, fuck Amazon. That entire "you are always working/on call" mentality can go fuck itself.

[Lantyssa]

It's a woman, and yeah she was looking forward to it. Pancreatic, 6-12 months no treatment, maybe 2 years with. There's totally a god you guys!

A bit late to this, but I just want to say fuck pancreatic cancer.

[Yegolev]

Did your CIO give you a King of Pops today?

[RhyssaFireheart]

Had our quarterly all-hands meeting for my group and one of the things they talked about was the culture survey that was sent out to employees back in May.  Nothing horribly surprising, really.  They picked four areas to focus on for continued improvement and asked people to use post-its to add comments on what we think needs to be started/improved/continued for each area.  I didn't initially get up to take part and our big boss asked me wasn't I going to take part.  I said no (not in a snarky way) and said that it's hard to give feedback on a culture survey when you are polling less than half of the people working in your group due to employee/contractor ratios.  Seriously, our group is almost 70% contractors, they "value our input" and yet we can't be asked stuff like this?  It's not getting an accurate picture of the culture here.

I also pointed out (again, not in a snarky or mad way) that I've been working here longer than some of the people he just listed when talking about anniversaries and milestones, yet I'm still a contractor because.. no headcount.  Except he reviewed some org changes and listed the new employee positions that have been created.  Yeah.  Thing is, I really do like my job and the people I work with, but sheesh.  Not going to lie, but I do have the occasional daydream about just upping and quitting, because that would wreck havoc on the finances for the entire department and the 40+ projects we have active in any given month.  I wouldn't ever do that to my co-workers though.

/rant over

[Paelos]

Are they trying to avoid health care coverages or something?

[RhyssaFireheart]

Are they trying to avoid health care coverages or something?

I have no idea.  It was the same before we split from the parent company, the huge majority of people working here are contractors/consultants.  You'd think a huge, multi-national bio-pharmaceutical company would be able to afford to up the headcount some, but I guess not.

[Merusk]

Are they trying to avoid health care coverages or something?

That's why we use contracts, so probably.

We also count on you "not wanting to screw your co-workers" to keep you there and on the hook.  It's starting to strain and fail at places because we've taken on far more work than we can deliver, but it's certainly worked for the 5 years I've been there.

[Viin]

It probably has to do with the revenue per employee number they report to their investors.

[Yegolev]

There is a laundry-list of reasons to use contract work.  Short version is that it is easier and cheaper.

[Lantyssa]

We also count on you "not wanting to screw your co-workers" to keep you there and on the hook.  It's starting to strain and fail at places because we've taken on far more work than we can deliver, but it's certainly worked for the 5 years I've been there.

And this is why once I was satisfied I was getting nothing else, I walked.   My co-workers' well-beings weren't worth the toll it was taking on my own.

[Merusk]

We also count on you "not wanting to screw your co-workers" to keep you there and on the hook.  It's starting to strain and fail at places because we've taken on far more work than we can deliver, but it's certainly worked for the 5 years I've been there.

And this is why once I was satisfied I was getting nothing else, I walked.   My co-workers' well-beings weren't worth the toll it was taking on my own.

Good on you. Never put non-family happiness before your own.

Besides, if enough/ the right people get fed-up and leave then chances of things improving for your co-workers increase. You're doing them a favor leaving because things will change or the company will go under, as it should. In my view, anyway.

[Lantyssa]

Things won't change.  They'll limp along, or go under, but they won't ever improve.  That alone is enough reason to move on.

[HaemishM]

There is a laundry-list of reasons to use contract work.  Short version is that it is easier and cheaper.

Plus you get to treat them like shit AND treat them as employees, but you don't have to pay them like employees, or pay taxes on them like employees. And it's all legal. My wife has work for a few places like that - you're considered self-employed so you get to pay your FICA taxes instead of your employer, and you have almost no legal recourse about any disputes like a real employee does.

In short, it's the next best thing to slave labor for companies needing skilled workers! Did I mention I think the whole practice is fucking disgusting?

[Merusk]

Things won't change.  They'll limp along, or go under, but they won't ever improve.  That alone is enough reason to move on.

As a rule, you're right. I've seen the exceptions but they're rare. Moving on yourself also keeps you from being "that" person. The one who bitches endlessly about the organization and how poorly things are done but has been there 12+ years.

[Paelos]

There is a laundry-list of reasons to use contract work.  Short version is that it is easier and cheaper.

Plus you get to treat them like shit AND treat them as employees, but you don't have to pay them like employees, or pay taxes on them like employees. And it's all legal. My wife has work for a few places like that - you're considered self-employed so you get to pay your FICA taxes instead of your employer, and you have almost no legal recourse about any disputes like a real employee does.

In short, it's the next best thing to slave labor for companies needing skilled workers! Did I mention I think the whole practice is fucking disgusting?

It's not legal if you fall into the right categories, and the IRS is really cracking down on it. If you think you are a employee, you file a SS-8 with the IRS for a determination. Once you do that, you file a form 8919 if you want to get the employer to pay your side of the taxes until you get a determination. If the employer fires you for filing the SS-8, you can sue them for wrongful termination and nail them to the wall.