Rift: Planes of Telara

[Draegan]

Has it been a month?

No. 

I can say that retention is going to be a problem for this game unless they make some significant changes.  Right now it feels too much like WAR did at release.  Fun and exciting at first, but gets old fast. 

I'm not seeing that all personally or in any of the online communities I frequent.  Server numbers are still strong all around.

I think it's just you and your dislike for DIKU-MMOGs.

[Chimpy]

Has it been a month?

One month will be April Fools' Day, so can we trust the numbers they put out?

Drae, come on man, it is one week into official release. Using server numbers one week out is absolute wankery with regards to post-firstmonth. Everyone is still getting their bearings.

[Rendakor]

I can see the comparison; the 40s in Rift feel like the 20s in WAR. Quests are sparse in the two zones I visited (Ironpine and Droughtlands) with neither having enough quests for any given level to even have you keep pace with the zone. The PVP doesn't really hold my attention because I've played BGs/WFs to death in WoW.

[Blackluck]

I can see the comparison; the 40s in Rift feel like the 20s in WAR. Quests are sparse in the two zones I visited (Ironpine and Droughtlands) with neither having enough quests for any given level to even have you keep pace with the zone. The PVP doesn't really hold my attention because I've played BGs/WFs to death in WoW.

Hmm, I'm 38 and I'm maybe half way through Moonshade HL' and have not done any quests in Droughtlands.  Didn't even finish Scarwood (quests greened out). In Alpha just doing Droughtlandss (and not finishing) I reached L42 (and I have't set foot in a Warfront.)

Edit:
I should add that I do the crafting dailies and I'm always in a duo with my SO - which gives a small 'group' bonus, not to mentionn she's an aggro magnet (we can't go anywhere without mobs jumping us lol)- so that may account for some of the difference. That said there seem to be an abundance of quests from my perspective.

[Shatter]

I can see the comparison; the 40s in Rift feel like the 20s in WAR. Quests are sparse in the two zones I visited (Ironpine and Droughtlands) with neither having enough quests for any given level to even have you keep pace with the zone. The PVP doesn't really hold my attention because I've played BGs/WFs to death in WoW.

I am level 39 and have had to dump a lot of quests that I just outpaced.  I have a good 15 I still need to do in the 37-39 range and expect to dump some of those.  Point is unless there is a severe dropoff of quests in the 40's I dont think I will have a shortage of quests up to 50.  Sorry you dont pvp but its good exp and one of the most fun parts of the game IMO.  Rifting also nets decent exp as well.  I guess maybe if all I did was level via pure questing I would run out but thats kind of a weak way to go through the game since you are bypassing content.  *shrugs*.   

[Nebu]

I'm not seeing that all personally or in any of the online communities I frequent.  Server numbers are still strong all around.

I think it's just you and your dislike for DIKU-MMOGs.

It's been a couple of weeks.  It will take 3-6 months for the shiny to wear off.  Less if people aren't excited about the current endgame. 

I enjoy Diku MMOs.  I played DAoC for 6 years and WoW for 3+ years.  I just happen to think that I'm more objective about my gaming than you.  You run a fansite.  Your emotional ties will influence your opinion as you have a vested interest in the game's success.   

Let's be honest here. The Rift mechanic gets old after you've experienced it several times.  The PvP is sub-par and lacks any real incentive.  Crafting is uninspired.  Most people will have finished the collection quests and the zone puzzles in short order.  This will leave the game with a niche audience similar in size to that of EQ2 at the very best.  My statement was that Rift will need to continue to add content or polish/alter existing content to maintain a large subscriber base.  They will need to alter the game's current mechanics if they want to hold on to the number of people that purchased the box out of curiosity.  In its current state, Rift doesn't have enough stickiness to keep people beyond a few months. 

Now, I believe Hartsman has the skill and creative direction to pull this off.  Whether he has the financial resources and talent to make it a reality is the question.   

[Mrbloodworth]

Nah, hes right Nebu, you are showing the signs like I was of being burnt out. Its clear from some of your postings.

Still, both of you are not 100% wrong.

[Threash]

I can see the comparison; the 40s in Rift feel like the 20s in WAR. Quests are sparse in the two zones I visited (Ironpine and Droughtlands) with neither having enough quests for any given level to even have you keep pace with the zone. The PVP doesn't really hold my attention because I've played BGs/WFs to death in WoW.

The difference is that at 20 in war you still had several months of leveling to go, you are 40 a couple weeks into Rift when max level is 50.  I hit 41 last night, i don't see it taking me longer than another week to hit 50.

[Nebu]

Nah, hes right Nebu, you are showing the signs like I was of being burnt out. Its clear from some of your postings.

Still, both of you are not 100% wrong.

Fair enough.

To be honest, part of me wants this game to succeed even though I know it will mean another decade of WoW clones.  I just hope that they will do something to remove some of the pointless progress blocks.  I also find myself concerned when developers say things like "the game starts at 50".  Really?  Then let me start at 50 where the fun is!

[Threash]

I think it's very telling that lvl 50 expert dungeons are a whole lot less painful at launch than wows heroic dungeons currently.  We have guild groups running several every night, and the people who don't get to go having very few problems doing them in pugs.

[Mrbloodworth]

Then let me start at 50 where the fun is!

In a way, they have done just that. Most builds of this game I have played was quite weighted at 50, then the soul hunting begins.

[Sky]

The grinds and raids start at 50, anyway.

I'm also continually surprised someone who runs a fansite is optimistic about the game.

[Nebu]

I think it's very telling that lvl 50 expert dungeons are a whole lot less painful at launch than wows heroic dungeons currently.  We have guild groups running several every night, and the people who don't get to go having very few problems doing them in pugs.

How much time can you play at level 50 until the content is exhausted?  In other words, not counting lock-out timers, how long (in hours played) does it take until your character is geared to the hilt with no improvement in sight? Are they expecting players to entertain themselves with PvP until they generate more content?

[Pennilenko]

I think it's very telling that lvl 50 expert dungeons are a whole lot less painful at launch than wows heroic dungeons currently.  We have guild groups running several every night, and the people who don't get to go having very few problems doing them in pugs.

How much time can you play at level 50 until the content is exhausted?  In other words, not counting lock-out timers, how long (in hours played) does it take until your character is geared to the hilt with no improvement in sight? Are they expecting players to entertain themselves with PvP until they generate more content?

Its funny, because I am totally fine with that. I also plan on raising each of the other three archetypes to 50 as well and then gearing them out and then doing a bunch of pvp. That should take me at least 4 to 6 months. Thats when my sub runs out. they have that long for some fresh content.

[Nebu]

I wasn't bitching, I was just asking.  I have a hard time motivating myself to play some days unless I know that I have something to look forward to after the level grind. 

Also, I'm generally a PvP first person.  Ok, unless the game has serious balance issues, stealth, or an overabundance of CC. 

[Threash]

I've got no idea.  There are several tiers of expert dungeons and raids, also raid level rifts. 

[Dark_MadMax]

How much time can you play at level 50 until the content is exhausted?  In other words, not counting lock-out timers, how long (in hours played) does it take until your character is geared to the hilt with no improvement in sight? Are they expecting players to entertain themselves with PvP until they generate more content?

Well we have a player  in full t2 epics save 3  pieces. He obviously is an exception as he hit server first lvl 50 on 3d day of headstart. PvP is complete garbage atm.  WF are imbalanced in all kind of broken ways  (starting with trivial things like one side having 5 players and other 8 ,then apparent skill imbalance when one sides wins no WFs whatsoever). world pvp is crappy as well (no incentives  , objectives or anything really -ganking is nice , but gets old after a while)

But then again its only 2nd week of release.

  Ok, unless the game has serious balance issues, stealth, or an overabundance of CC. 

Depends what you consider balance issues lol .Some specs are definitely  one to play - though all this is normal, just play the good specs. overabundance of cc is bigger problem though 15 second in squirrel  then 10 second , then 7 , then  you get rolled

[Mrbloodworth]

Yeah but, hours played?

[Draegan]

I'm not seeing that all personally or in any of the online communities I frequent.  Server numbers are still strong all around.

I think it's just you and your dislike for DIKU-MMOGs.

It's been a couple of weeks.  It will take 3-6 months for the shiny to wear off.  Less if people aren't excited about the current endgame. 

I enjoy Diku MMOs.  I played DAoC for 6 years and WoW for 3+ years.  I just happen to think that I'm more objective about my gaming than you.  You run a fansite.  Your emotional ties will influence your opinion as you have a vested interest in the game's success.   

Let's be honest here. The Rift mechanic gets old after you've experienced it several times.  The PvP is sub-par and lacks any real incentive.  Crafting is uninspired.  Most people will have finished the collection quests and the zone puzzles in short order.  This will leave the game with a niche audience similar in size to that of EQ2 at the very best.  My statement was that Rift will need to continue to add content or polish/alter existing content to maintain a large subscriber base.  They will need to alter the game's current mechanics if they want to hold on to the number of people that purchased the box out of curiosity.  In its current state, Rift doesn't have enough stickiness to keep people beyond a few months. 

Now, I believe Hartsman has the skill and creative direction to pull this off.  Whether he has the financial resources and talent to make it a reality is the question.   

You are kind of contradicting yourself here.  You say it will take 3-6 months for the shiny to wear off.  Yet on the same page you said

I can say that retention is going to be a problem for this game unless they make some significant changes.  Right now it feels too much like WAR did at release.  Fun and exciting at first, but gets old fast. 

Those two statements don't gel together.  Wasn't there some stat where the average WOW sub lasted 3 months or so?  I would think that the devs would consider Rift a success if they can keep the average player 3-6 months.

Second, I am being honest here.  Obviously I have a vested interest in this game, but I'm not blind.  Crafting is not my thing, I think it's bland in any game.  Unless an MMOG is built for it, I think PVP is bland in any of these games, especially if it isn't twitch, and based off of typical hotbar/GCD combat.

If you think that's going to leave this game with a niche audience that's being bland.  That's the same thing as saying if you take rated BGs, crafting and phased quests that will leave WOW with a niche audience.  It seems like a rather silly thing to say.

Like any other MMOG if you don't continue to add content to the game you're always going to lose players.  I think RIFT is pretty aware of this.  We'll just have to see how fast and what kind of content they will be delivering.

I'm not sure what you're looking for in a game like this.  It's primarily a PVE progression game.  It's about killing bosses in dungeons and raids.  It's about leveling and getting gear and there are a few activities on the side.  Also, Rifts are pretty fun once you get a few that have some interesting mechanics.

The zone invasions and things are still pretty damn cool if you ask me.  That's enough gameplay for me.  I just wish they would start spawning in Shimmersand.

[Draegan]

The grinds and raids start at 50, anyway.

I'm also continually surprised someone who runs a fansite is optimistic about the game.

I ran a fansite for Warhammer, and I wasn't optimistic about it.  I was hopeful about it, but that went away a few weeks after release when it set in how much a mess the game was.

I wasn't bitching, I was just asking.  I have a hard time motivating myself to play some days unless I know that I have something to look forward to after the level grind. 

Also, I'm generally a PvP first person.  Ok, unless the game has serious balance issues, stealth, or an overabundance of CC. 

I've put in several days of time /played at max level already and I'm not nearly done gearing myself out due to the god damn random number generator.

But then again, my guild is now on Greenscale, as we just cleared 4/5 bosses last night.

[Threash]

There might be an overabundance of cc but there is also an overabundance of cc breakers and cc duration reduction talents.  You should never have to sit as a squirrel for 30 seconds unless all you did is pick all the talents that made for the pretty numbers.

[Lakov_Sanite]

There might be an overabundance of cc but there is also an overabundance of cc breakers and cc duration reduction talents.  You should never have to sit as a squirrel for 30 seconds unless all you did is pick all the talents that made for the pretty numbers.

False. Some classes have cc breaks but not all those breaks work for every cc. For instance I have a mez/charm/fear break but that does jack shit for stuns/squirrels/snares/roots.

[Nebu]

There might be an overabundance of cc but there is also an overabundance of cc breakers and cc duration reduction talents.  You should never have to sit as a squirrel for 30 seconds unless all you did is pick all the talents that made for the pretty numbers.

Good to know.  Anyone that has ever pvp'ed in an MMO knows that you do zero dps while CC'ed.  CC breakers would be a priority, particularly if I were melee.  Having pvp'ed in the lower tiers, gameplay balance seems to be very much based on which trees have which PvP-useful abilities earliest in their build.  At the endgame, this isn't going to be an issue.  

Question: I've been reading that healers have a tough time feeling effective in endgame pvp due to all of the heal reduction abilities.  Would you say that is a genuine concern or is it more overblown than reality suggests?  

[Threash]

There might be an overabundance of cc but there is also an overabundance of cc breakers and cc duration reduction talents.  You should never have to sit as a squirrel for 30 seconds unless all you did is pick all the talents that made for the pretty numbers.

False. Some classes have cc breaks but not all those breaks work for every cc. For instance I have a mez/charm/fear break but that does jack shit for stuns/squirrels/snares/roots.

There are four classes in this game, all of them have access to enough cc breakers to get out of any kind of cc.

[Threash]

Question: I've been reading that healers have a tough time feeling effective in endgame pvp due to all of the heal reduction abilities.  Would you say that is a genuine concern or is it more overblown than reality suggests?  

I think high burst and mana draining are a bigger issue than heal reduction abilities for healers.  The only healing reduction my warrior has comes from champion and it is not on demand (triggers on crits), i believe rogues comes from assassination and is also a random proc from one of their poisons.  Someone that is actually being healed is extremely hard to take down unless you can bring them down in a couple of hits, the healing reduction has its place.  Now the fact that a void knight can have a caster oom in a few seconds and a champion can crit a mage dead in one finisher are probably valid concerns.

[Lakov_Sanite]

As a level 30 reaver/riftblade I have 'one' cc break, two if I grab the pvp soul and lose my pet. That still doesn't help me much, the cc abilities in this game far outnumber the breaks.

[Nebu]

If you think that's going to leave this game with a niche audience that's being bland.  That's the same thing as saying if you take rated BGs, crafting and phased quests that will leave WOW with a niche audience.  It seems like a rather silly thing to say.

This game is not WoW.  No game is, or likely to ever be another WoW. Comparisons of any kind to WoW would be silly.  

When I called the game niche, I meant that I think it will have 400-500k subscribers 6 months from now.  I don't think that's an unrealistic expectation.  Rift is a pretty game with a solid foundation.  I expect it to do slightly better than LotRO or EQ2, but that's still niche by WoW standards.  If they do better, that's wonderful.  I'd like to see Hartsman rewarded.  

I'm still unconvinced that WoW players aren't just vacationing in Rift because they don't care for Cataclysm.  Perhaps a few fixes to Cataclysm will bring them back?  I don't know.  I do know that general chat is nothing but WoW chatter and WoW comparisons.  That suggests that the playerbase in Rift has some strong connection to WoW in some form.  

I've put in several days of time /played at max level already and I'm not nearly done gearing myself out due to the god damn random number generator.

But then again, my guild is now on Greenscale, as we just cleared 4/5 bosses last night.

If I had a guild comprised of motivated and competent people, I'm sure I'd be enjoying this game as much as you are.  Sadly, most players (particularly casual players) don't have that opportunity.  Hell, I loved DAoC primarily because I could log on 4-5 nights a week and always be in a very competitive 8v8 group.  People in these games have a profound impact on enjoyment.  Finding people of quality is possibly the greatest barrier to the fun in these games.

[Threash]

The problem is that you are not a reaver/riftblade, you are a warrior.  And picking a pet over a cc break is exactly what i meant by "pick all the talents that made for the pretty numbers".

[Sky]

A reaver does get an awesome chuckle when he uses his cc breaker, though. Rates as one of the better game experiences, some guy stuns you and muahaha!

[Draegan]

This game is not WoW.  No game is, or likely to ever be another WoW. Comparisons of any kind to WoW would be silly.  

When I called the game niche, I meant that I think it will have 400-500k subscribers 6 months from now.  I don't think that's an unrealistic expectation.  Rift is a pretty game with a solid foundation.  I expect it to do slightly better than LotRO or EQ2, but that's still niche by WoW standards.  If they do better, that's wonderful.  I'd like to see Hartsman rewarded.  

I'm still unconvinced that WoW players aren't just vacationing in Rift because they don't care for Cataclysm.  Perhaps a few fixes to Cataclysm will bring them back?  I don't know.  I do know that general chat is nothing but WoW chatter and WoW comparisons.  That suggests that the playerbase in Rift has some strong connection to WoW in some form.  

I've put in several days of time /played at max level already and I'm not nearly done gearing myself out due to the god damn random number generator.

But then again, my guild is now on Greenscale, as we just cleared 4/5 bosses last night.

If I had a guild comprised of motivated and competent people, I'm sure I'd be enjoying this game as much as you are.  Sadly, most players (particularly casual players) don't have that opportunity.  

This game is exactly like WOW if we're comparing game mechanics.  Does it have the same popularity? No, but that's obvious, but this game is PVE leveling/dungeoning/raiding game just like it.  There are no differences from a macro level.  

As far as WOW chatter goes, every game will be compared to it since it's the most popular game of it's kind.  I don't think that says anything except "Hey we all share a common experience, let's talk about it."

As far as your last comment.  Let's not talk about casual vs. raider stuff.  There are plenty of things to do by the casual player that aren't raids, and the group content available is mostly puggable to a given point right now.

[Nebu]

Let's not talk about casual vs. raider stuff.  There are plenty of things to do by the casual player that aren't raids, and the group content available is mostly puggable to a given point right now.

Why not?  I'll bet you my paycheck that the game would be significantly less fun to you if you were slogging through content with a pug as opposed to a regular set of friends.  If you're going to discuss the quality of the game, you really need to consider how it plays in a random pug.  That's how most people will experience it. 

I'm not asking you to agree with me, Draegan.  Just asking for some objectivity.  Were this my first MMO experience I can assure you that I'd be much more impressed by it than I am.  I like the look of it.  I like the collection quests.  I like that there's always something to do.  All of those things don't cover up the obvious shortfalls of the game.  Shortfalls that will be felt much more strongly by those playing casually and/or without hardcore pals to play with.  You know, the people that comprise the majority of the long-term subscriber base. 

[Lakov_Sanite]

I don't even use my pet in pvp anyways. having to summon it every time I rez on top of the rez timer takes far too long for me to get back into the actions for what is a very negligable boost to me. As I just said, even having two cc breaks wouldnt mean much for the sheer amount off cc's people are throwing out there. It also doesn't invalidate my point.

let's say I have the pvp soul on. squirrel? break it with pvp soul reaver cant. Stunned? Die because the reaver can't break it.  it seems like a very specific scenario but there are so MANY types of cc's in the game it's bein tossed around like free candy from the rape van.  

To make matter worse, my reaver anti cc will let me click it from cc's i cant break making me 'think' i can break them and then wasting my only anti cc

[Threash]

Nor should you be able to break every cc, the point is you don't have to eat them all if you plan for it.  If that one time you break squirrel leads to a kill then you are already ahead.

[Dark_MadMax]

There might be an overabundance of cc but there is also an overabundance of cc breakers and cc duration reduction talents.  You should never have to sit as a squirrel for 30 seconds unless all you did is pick all the talents that made for the pretty numbers.

Ohh really? Tell me which exactly talent is a cc breaker in ANY of the rogues soul? The infiltrator tree aside (which is 5 (FIVE) minute CD)

[Draegan]

Why not?  I'll bet you my paycheck that the game would be significantly less fun to you if you were slogging through content with a pug as opposed to a regular set of friends.  If you're going to discuss the quality of the game, you really need to consider how it plays in a random pug.  That's how most people will experience it. 

I'm not asking you to agree with me, Draegan.  Just asking for some objectivity.  Were this my first MMO experience I can assure you that I'd be much more impressed by it than I am.  I like the look of it.  I like the collection quests.  I like that there's always something to do.  All of those things don't cover up the obvious shortfalls of the game.  Shortfalls that will be felt much more strongly by those playing casually and/or without hardcore pals to play with.  You know, the people that comprise the majority of the long-term subscriber base. 

I hate casual vs. hardcore debates because they're retarded and it's old hat.

In any game that you play the more friends you have the better it is.  That's a rule of life, not just video games.  I played through much of WOW in random guilds and pugs.  RIFT is no different outside it being a bit easier to fill out a group due to the calling system.

Don't bother with the bet because it's true.  Any game where you get to play with the same people every day is a far more enjoyable experience.

I think I'm being incredibly objective.  This game has the majority of the same type of content as a WOW.  What it's lacking is the sheer size of subscribers and players.  The shortfalls you think are there, are the shortfalls that are in every other DIKU MMOG out there.