Rift: Planes of Telara

[Nebu]

God help your retarded ass if you really believe that.

You're right.  You convinced me to come to your side with such a compelling point. 

[Threash]

When someone says something that idiotic there really is no point in trying to convince them to come to your side, all you can do is point and laugh.

[rattran]

I think Nebu wins the thread.

[Merusk]

I love this argument every year when it comes up.  Neither side can be proven right or wrong because nobody's cut either element out of their game entirely.

Are you suggesting that WoW would have 11 million subs if it were a PvP only MMO?  I'd be willing to bet my house that wouldn't be the case.

PvP is something for PvE gamers to do as a distraction.  PvE is an annoyance that PvP players tolerate to climb the power curve. 

See where I'm going with this?

No, I'm not.  I'm saying I've had this argument for the last 10 years and nothing's been resolved and nothing ever WILL be. It's like the UO Trammel debate or ragging on Schild for the NGE.  It's not an amusing argument anymore and should probably be one of those "time to den it" rules as well.  (For the record I've always been on the "Add more pve and stop fucking that up with PVP changes" side.)

However, I don't think WOW would have hit 11mil with only PVE, either.

[Nebu]

No, I'm not.  I'm saying I've had this argument for the last 10 years and nothing's been resolved and nothing ever WILL be. It's like the UO Trammel debate or ragging on Schild for the NGE.  It's not an amusing argument anymore and should probably be one of those "time to den it" rules as well.  (For the record I've always been on the "Add more pve and stop fucking that up with PVP changes" side.)

However, I don't think WOW would have hit 11mil with only PVE, either.

I'm walking away.  You're right in saying this has been beaten to death.  My apologies.

[Lantyssa]

You'd both still be right.  10,900,000 is less than 11 million.

[Paelos]

Wasn't this about Rift?

I heard it sucks.

[Segoris]

It was about Rifts, but since some people believe any MMO that uses WASD and action bars is a WoW clone, that this thread is also a WoW thread.

[SnakeCharmer]

Man, they just need to put in precasting.

Win.

[Spiff]

It is technically possible for an enemy wardstone to be replaced by one of your side (actively forcing it to happen is another thing entirely though), the original NPC's will still respawn but basically get spawncamped by the NPC's the new wardstone summons.

This is also possible on a PvE server btw. Threads are already popping up from PvE'ers complaining it happened in beta and they don't feel like getting indirectly griefed like this or being forced to PvP in order to get their questhub back.
Couple that with the PvP tab not being on the 'absolutely not'-setting by default and the myriad of AoE-skills and a lot of people are getting suckered into PvP.
You also get rewarded with faction for this, so there's a reason to do it besides just being a dick.

This is potentially a fairly big issue.

[Ratama]

Would think the obvious fix would to be disable that on PvE servers, but their PvP flagging system needs work, regardless.  Byzantine flagging rules aren't exactly conducive to high-fun, low-stress PvP.

[Paelos]

High-fun, low-stress PvP.

I'm pretty sure this only exists for a very small part of pvp players. Those at the top.

[Ghambit]

Given the lore and mechanics of Rift, I find it kinda amusing people are getting testy and all "wtf" about having PvP.  Of all the titles aside from WAR, the way Rift is built points towards significant PvP play more than most.  And its integration into the game is extremely important because of this imo, regardless of its "importance."  Flatly, the entire basis behind the game crumbles if pvp isnt at least moderately perfected.  To this end, there can be no 'suckering' into PvP, you either deal with it or get over it.

Personally, I look forward to doing PvE content amongst a constantly shifting battlefront; this includes the occasional maingame pvp frackus.  And since there are PvP souls, having to fight back invaders isnt really that big of a deal since it's not like I have to build my character out just to defend a quest hub.  Furthermore, if I want to pound the pvp gear I still have the option of hitting the BGs then trying out said gear on grief-runs.

[Brogarn]

I'm pretty sure this only exists for a very small part of pvp players. Those at the top.

And Warhammer players. Wandering in and out of the RvR lakes, auto joining groups, running around bashing whatever gets in your way, leaving without saying a word... I'm not saying that WAR is the end all be all of ... okay, anything, but that PvP was fun and relaxing. At least in the first 3 tiers before it became Serious Business, anyways.

I'm also going to guess that you're a PvE player without much interest in PvP. I get that and have no problem with it. I fall in the middle, though, and quite enjoy both. I'm certainly not the top of either category and remain forever average. But I find either one relaxing depending on my mood. Unless I've joined a bad PUG in a random dungeon. Then it's all rage and fire and burning.

[Dark_MadMax]

PvP is niche.  If you eliminated pvp from WoW entirely, I doubt that it would lose more than 100k subs.  People want ding gratz and phat lootz.  Both are more readily dispensed from NPCs.  The key is to build a better amusement park ride that allows as many pulls of the slot machine as you can fit in a game session. 

The masses want WoW-like Deer Hunter.  It's the niche that wants EvE. 

I dont think anyone argues that pvp is a niche. Question is how big this niche is. DaoC had decent 300k subs -  competitive with pve king of the time (EQ) . EvE has 300+ K and I am sure many pvpers dont play it  ( I dont - and I tried to honestly give it a go THREE FRIGGIN TIMES, now imagine how bad the gameplay has to be if the guy who stuck with SB for 2 years couldn't endure more than 2 weeks of eve).  Problem is besides daoc there was no quality pvp games at all (and its sad cause daoc was far from perfect). There was complete and utter trash like SB or Darkfall -both of which were horrible both from technical and design standpoints . I think eve with combat which is actually fun   would pull over 1 mill subs


Now the part I think is hard to argue with is that wow likely wouldnt lose very much subs if they removed pvp altogether. WoW pvp died shortly after TBC.  Best wow pvp was beta and a few months before BGs hit .  Farmville I heard has more subs too. So if you after massmarket there is you target. Just remember wow and farm ville already exist and cater to lowest common denominator very well, they have very deep pockets to do that better than everyone else too. You would have to deal with sheep which is already shepherded. And  unlike movies average sheep wont play 2 "gratz ding" at same time -it is winners take all market
 

LotRo is quality PvE game, yet look at where it is .Successful yes, but niche all the same in terms of subs

[Hoax]

Nebu is clueless, WoW without pvp would never have taken off in the first place. Period. End of debate. At WoW's launch if 50% of the people who were on pvp servers were not playing...  All that word of mouth, all that backlash for not having any pvp at all. Not to mention how stupid the game would feel if you could never ever ever actually fight the opposing faction in the world of WARcraft..

But whatever stay fucking idiotic, so glad you could take the high road after you felt you'd made your "point".

I'm walking away.  You're right in saying this has been beaten to death.  My apologies.

I don't think this has been beaten to death actually because I've never heard anyone claim something so stupid as WoW with zero pvp whatsoever would have done equally well for itself.

As for Rift, this is now a thread about WoW because in case you hadn't heard people who have been around long enough have already figured out that there isn't anything in the gameplay itself of Rift worth talking about that isn't exactly like WoW.

-World PvP is something WoW has lacked since they introduced the pvp system to the game. Rift does not deliver it-

Serious question, what else is there gameplay wise you want from WoW but aren't getting? I haven't played it in years because I think BG's are a bad joke in a MMO and I like pvp.

For me Rift will probably fail based on the fact that the loot tables are terrible and gear itself outside of possibly crafted gear is honestly quite uninspired, so unspired I'm not sure why nobody seems to be mentioning that fact. Coupled with very bland PC's in no small part because of said awful itemization. Put that together and there just isn't enough shiney or gratz involved with playing the game.

I also have a suspicion if I was to play the L3X-4X game I'd find that it also suffers from launch DAOC's lack of mob variety.

I think how well Rift does, which will be much better than AoC/WAR will prove what so many have said about not releasing shit alpha level products and expecting people to stick around while you work on them for $15/month but the fact that it will quickly be a game everyone forgets about once they have an excuse to is a testament to just how bland and boring of a game it has turned out to be and how its two revolutionary features (souls, mainly the switching of them and rifts) both don't seem to do much for gameplay.

*50 edits later, sorry to anyone who read the original versions*

Did anyone else start to setup a different soul spec and then stop because relearning 30 abilities and rebinding all those skills to the bars just seemed like such a huge pain in the ass?

[Ratama]

High-fun, low-stress PvP.

I'm pretty sure this only exists for a very small part of pvp players. Those at the top.

In a regressive-sum PvP game, prolly (Shadowbane's GvG was terrible about that, for instance).

In, say, WoW BGs (random example, I know), that's fairly low stress.  PvPers so high-strung they don't have fun unless they win are the minority.

But apparently PvPers are less than a 1% minority anyway, so who gives a shit.

I've never heard anyone claim something so stupid as WoW with zero pvp whatsoever would have done equally well for itself.

A first for everything!  (I don't think he and a couple others in this thread are really that fucking stupid, but w/e).

[Lantyssa]

The existence of PvP in WoW didn't hurt it, but y'all are ascribing way too much of its success to it.  It's changed dramatically since launch and the game is still more focused on PvE and it's doing just fine.

It won't help Rift any, because it's still a joke of an implementation.  When a couple of level 10s can face the level 50 camping their quest hub and have an actual chance of driving the person off, then we can talk.  (Something which DC Universe seems to have gotten right.)

[Falconeer]

When a couple of level 10s can face the level 50 camping their quest hub and have an actual chance of driving the person off, then we can talk.  (Something which DC Universe seems to have gotten right.)

Conan was really awesome at this.

[Threash]

So was shadowbane.  Diminishing returns for leveling = win.

[Paelos]

I'm pretty sure this only exists for a very small part of pvp players. Those at the top.

I'm also going to guess that you're a PvE player without much interest in PvP. I get that and have no problem with it. I fall in the middle, though, and quite enjoy both. I'm certainly not the top of either category and remain forever average. But I find either one relaxing depending on my mood. Unless I've joined a bad PUG in a random dungeon. Then it's all rage and fire and burning.

I started as a pvper in my first MMO with DAOC. The problem I always ran into was that players in pvp situations were extremely cliquey to the point that even guilds didn't pvp together. Only subsects of guilds did. That just left running around like an idiot trying to level in the god-awful pve. Then WoW came and basically flipped my interest. The pve was awesome and the pvp wasn't included.

[veredus]

I find it hard to believe pvp has much bearing on WoW subs seeing that WoW pvp is/was (been awhile since I played) super shitty and Rift's pvp doesn't seem to be any better either. I am going to play Rift but not for the pvp.

[Ingmar]

I think Nebu went overboard with the hyperbole in terms of numbers but the basic idea is sound. WoW at release, and for months thereafter, essentially didn't even have PVP, and that's when the game was getting its hooks into the first crowd. If you removed it *now* then I think the consequences would be large, but it really wasn't a big deal early on.

[Draegan]

Man, they just need to put in precasting.

Win.

They have spell queues and there are two kinds of them.

[Dark_MadMax]

I think Nebu went overboard with the hyperbole in terms of numbers but the basic idea is sound. WoW at release, and for months thereafter, essentially didn't even have PVP, and that's when the game was getting its hooks into the first crowd. If you removed it *now* then I think the consequences would be large, but it really wasn't a big deal early on.

Wow lol. And many consider the best wow pvp ever had was exactly from late beta to  about when BG hit (was it late summer?). WoW had world pvp right off the bat. It had shit ton of it if you went to well populated pvp servers (and by shitton I mean in one weekend I had more pvp in STV and Booty bay than I had in 2 months of SB) . It doesnt matter if you only interested in bg, fact is WoW had LOTS OF PVP.

Then honor grind hit. It wasnt the end - in fact it made zones like tarrent mills constant warzone. But then BG hit. That was beginning of the end. By the time imba guards and flying mounts were introduced wow world pvp was half alive and after that it was simply gone.

There is still arenas.  and lol bgs.  Thing is pveers never care for  world pvp, hence they thing it does not exist, but fact is world pvp was what carried lots of hardcore guild trough first 2 years of wow (virtually every hardcore pvp guild was playing wow for sole reason of world pvp).

[Ghambit]

When a couple of level 10s can face the level 50 camping their quest hub and have an actual chance of driving the person off, then we can talk.  (Something which DC Universe seems to have gotten right.)

Conan was really awesome at this.

A lot of AoCs success at this was based upon  a) PvP-specced uber-geared twinks  b) more twitch-based gameplay.
In Rift, perhaps "we can talk" once a fully specced out and decked out group of lowbies goes against said high level.  For now, it's kinda status quo that vendor-trash geared lowbies cant take down a single highlvl.   AoC remember also wasnt quite as 'gear-centric' as Rift probably aims to be, which furthers this reasoning.

[Hoax]

I think Nebu went overboard with the hyperbole in terms of numbers but the basic idea is sound. WoW at release, and for months thereafter, essentially didn't even have PVP, and that's when the game was getting its hooks into the first crowd. If you removed it *now* then I think the consequences would be large, but it really wasn't a big deal early on.

Dark_MadMax essentially nails how the super majority of people playing on pvp servers (which at vanilla WoW's launch were a considerable amount of the total servers, Blizz in fact heavily underestimated how many they would need and the biggest servers for the first 6 months of the game were all pvp servers) felt about pvp when WoW was coming out. Blizzard misled the players into thinking they were going to create a system for pvp which most took to mean world pvp and then they took world pvp out back and shot it. But by that time WoW even most of those same pvp players leaving didn't matter as much because a) many stayed because they were invested in guilds/characters/trying out BG's and b) the ball was already rolling and WoW was already the biggest video game ever.

The impression at launch that Blizz cultivated was that they cared about pvp and that pvp was going to be part of the game. Nobody knew about the Battleground concept and esport pvp being the only pvp at launch.

[Threash]

Yeah pvp was a big fucking deal at wow launch, just because there wasn't actually anything there yet didn't stop MMO players from going for it anyways (shocking, i know).

[Hoax]

Ironically not having raiding would probably have been less of a deal on launch day then not having pvp of any kind. I'm trying to remember if they even had any raid content at launch. There was what, LBRS/UBRS and Strath? Did Ony even exist at launch? I'm not positive that any 20-40 man content existed but that was irrelevant because WoW wasn't grabbing people from EQ1 they were grabbing everyone who was playing SB & DAOC and eventually all of their friends and families plus the not too small Blizzard fanbase.

[Kirth]

Ironically not having raiding would probably have been less of a deal on launch day then not having pvp of any kind. I'm trying to remember if they even had any raid content at launch. There was what, LBRS/UBRS and Strath? Did Ony even exist at launch? I'm not positive that any 20-40 man content existed but that was irrelevant because WoW wasn't grabbing people from EQ1 they were grabbing everyone who was playing SB & DAOC and eventually all of their friends and families plus the not too small Blizzard fanbase.

Ony and Molten Core existed at launch, Blackwing Lair was patched in around the same time BGs came in. People raided what are now considered 5-mans because you could take as many people as you wanted up to 40 back then.

[Tannhauser]

I'm no pvp'er but at level 13 my orc hunter helped defend the Crossroads from the Alliance.  When I helped kill a level 20 Night Elf I was thrilled!  Later on I went and did pvp in Hillsbrad.  Fun!  Then the BG's came in but they weren't the same.  Too much srs bsns already.

So Blizz actually turned a pve'er like me off pvp.

Hopefully Telara will do better.  Historically I'll pvp (UO, SB) if I feel I have a fair shot with a bit of effort and planning. 

[Merusk]

I dont think anyone argues that pvp is a niche. Question is how big this niche is. DaoC had decent 300k subs -  competitive with pve king of the time (EQ) . EvE has 300+ K and I am sure many pvpers dont play it  ( I dont - and I tried to honestly give it a go THREE FRIGGIN TIMES, now imagine how bad the gameplay has to be if the guy who stuck with SB for 2 years couldn't endure more than 2 weeks of eve).  Problem is besides daoc there was no quality pvp games at all (and its sad cause daoc was far from perfect). There was complete and utter trash like SB or Darkfall -both of which were horrible both from technical and design standpoints . I think eve with combat which is actually fun   would pull over 1 mill subs

Here's the thing.. neither of those games are PVP-only.  DAOC had folks who never, ever participated in RVR and IIRC did have a PVE endgame.  EVE has fully 2/3 of its population that lives in .5 or higher.  Nobody knows what the population for a PVP-only 100% of the time (like EQ or WOW PVP servers) game is, because nobody's been able to competently risk that.

With SB's failure the last hope for such a game on a big-budget scale died.  WoW came along and everyone's chasing that dream instead of a niche because these games are fucking expensive to make.  The closest you're going to get is a f2p game, and even Salem with it's open-pvp and permadeth isn't providing a 100% gankable environment like SB did.

It's a question that's going to go 'round and 'round forever.  All evidence points to MMO players enjoying both but preferring safe zones to UO.  It also points in the direction that, if forced to pick from a 100% PVP or PVE environ, they'd prefer the 100% PVE for the lack of headaches.  However, you're never going to convince zealots on either side that either of these are the case.

[Modern Angel]

I don't need convincing of anything. I will say, Hoax, that claiming WoW wasn't pulling tons of people from EQ1 is completely insane.

[Typhon]

We're mostly older here and (for the most part) our mindset didn't come equipped with PvP - our games were against the DM and his minions.

Newer crop grew up with PvP in their FPS - it's what they did after they beat the relatively short game.  They are much more comfortable with PvP being a part of the game, so I think that games now have to launch with some sort of PvP (and definitely some sort of co-op) because "what are you going to do after you get bored with the PvE?"

And they are the bigger audience.  Look, here are some numbers pulled straight out of my ass: Maybe 20% of the older folks (40+) played PC games.  Now, it's probably 60%.  (all the guys and some of the girls).  And I really don't think they give a shit if PvP impacts PvE. 

Add to all of that this - PvP is the only reason to keep playing a game while you wait for new PvE content to come out.  I think it would be a bad business decision for any game to launch without PvP at this point.

[Hoax]

I don't need convincing of anything. I will say, Hoax, that claiming WoW wasn't pulling tons of people from EQ1 is completely insane.

It literally depopulated those other two games. Nobody saw any reason to play DAOC or SB since WoW was going to be providing world pvp. Though I was not at all a part of the EQ1 community what friends and online acquaintances I had who still were in general were far less enthusiastic about WoW than I was. WoW was seen as dumbing down, too cartoony etc. etc. At that time there was still some cult of personality surrounding SOE/Brad/EQ1 don't forget that people played the pile of shit that was EQ2 at launch and people bought Vanguard. I'm sure that overall the number they pulled from EQ1 was a lot, I didn't mean to imply otherwise but in terms of basically emptying a community I don't think WoW had that effect because it was not being seen as an apples to apples game.