SWTOR

[ezrast]

What may feel entirely awesome in single player game (where you have to only rely on yourself and only have yourself to blame for screwups) can feel quite different when you fail the experience for the 20th time because of yet another random mistake made by one of your group of four/five.

Broken-ass MMO design. And one of the reasons Heigan is one of my favorite encounters.

[Lantyssa]

If we're being pedantic, 'trinity' is an older school term for onions, celery and bell peppers. 

I'd play an onion most of the time.

[Kirth]

If we're being pedantic, 'trinity' is an older school term for onions, celery and bell peppers. 

I'd play an onion most of the time.

You onions always making noobs cry, should be nerfed imo. 

[Draegan]

I'll take a hybrid sausage, onions and peppers?  Mmm I'm hungry.

[eldaec]

You people are starting to disgust me. That boss fight would be entirely awesome in Devil May Cry or any context where you don't reify broken-ass MMO design, i.e. not this thread.

What may feel entirely awesome in single player game (where you have to only rely on yourself and only have yourself to blame for screwups) can feel quite different when you fail the experience for the 20th time because of yet another random mistake made by one of your group of four/five.

Now you're getting into how forgiving the system is which is an entirely different issue to whether the challenge should be responding to signals from the game, or simply how long you've been grinding for.

What you describe is no more irritating than failing because one of your group of four/five has only ground out the preceding instance 10 times instead of 12, and so his ward gear is less effective.

[Ingmar]

You people are starting to disgust me. That boss fight would be entirely awesome in Devil May Cry or any context where you don't reify broken-ass MMO design, i.e. not this thread.

What may feel entirely awesome in single player game (where you have to only rely on yourself and only have yourself to blame for screwups) can feel quite different when you fail the experience for the 20th time because of yet another random mistake made by one of your group of four/five.

Now you're getting into how forgiving the system is which is an entirely different issue to whether the challenge should be responding to signals from the game, or simply how long you've been grinding for.

What you describe is no more irritating than failing because one of your group of four/five has only ground out the preceding instance 10 times instead of 12, and so his ward gear is less effective.

I don't know, in the latter situation I can tell someone 'go do that two more times' without feeling bad about it. When someone just sucks at executing it is a lot harder to approach that in a way I find socially acceptable.

That is not to say I would prefer the ward gear solution, though.

[eldaec]

ITT f13 decides that grind is good.

[eldaec]

Grind, for lack of a better word, is good. Grind is right. Grind works. Grind clarifies, cuts through, and captures, the essence of the spiritless dingratz addicted walking wallet. Grind, in all of its forms; grind for xp, for gear, for skills, light side points, has marked the upward surge of producer profits and grind, you mark my words, will not only save Electronic Arts, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the U.S.A.

[Sky]

If we're being pedantic, 'trinity' is an older school term for onions, celery and bell peppers. 

WTF? I think you meant onions, celery and carrot. Or onion, garlic and bell pepper.

Skimming the last two pages, the most amazing thing is that anyone here likes any games at all.

[Ingmar]

Let me get picky for a minute.

"Grind" is just the word we use when an MMO activity turns from "fun" to "I wish I didn't have to do this". If the process of getting your ward gear is fun, then it isn't a grind. Repeating the same activity isn't inherently bad design.

[eldaec]

Sky is right. Carrots. Not Peppers.

But widening the point beyond MMOGs does seem an odd argument to make...

[Paelos]

What may feel entirely awesome in single player game (where you have to only rely on yourself and only have yourself to blame for screwups) can feel quite different when you fail the experience for the 20th time because of yet another random mistake made by one of your group of four/five.

Broken-ass MMO design. And one of the reasons Heigan is one of my favorite encounters.

How is the design broken? Because people are failing it? Because it's not hard enough? Because people would like it if they were solely in control of it? I don't undersand your point at all.

[luckton]

If I could just throw out a SWTOR-related post...you know, here in the SWTOR thread, the devs chatted a little bit about tanks and classes not too long ago...

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8741945#edit8741945

There are no specific 'tank classes'. This is where The Old Republic is different. There are roles you can specialize into by spending points in your skill trees. Which roles are available is based on your AC, but you will ultimately pick one or try to hybridize by spending points in multiple skill trees.

A DPS-specced Juggernaut is not even close to a tank specced Juggernaut. He will go down just as fast (or slightly slower due to slightly higher defense) than a Marauder.

Heavy armor is nice (we're talking about single digit % defense increase over medium nice), but in terms of game mechanics, what matters ultimately is your cumulative ability to survive or avoid damage. One AC can have armor, another AC can have the ability to deflect more damage, the resulting ability to survive would be the same.

[Nebu]

If you can't have multiple specs at release, this game is going to struggle keeping people beyond the initial "shiny" phase.   It's no longer viable to be locked into a role in modern MMOs, especially if some content requires a group.  PvP further complicates the need for multiple specs/roles.  

I hope to hell that the current beta testers are making this point abundantly clear.

[CmdrSlack]

I hope to hell that there's one more round of beta invites. I would hate to pre-order solely to get access to the "head-start" test/magic patch is coming period.

[Nevermore]

Sky is right. Carrots. Not Peppers.

But widening the point beyond MMOGs does seem an odd argument to make...

Incorrect.  Onions, Celery and Carrots is Mirepoix.  Onions, Celery and Bell Pepper is the Trinity, which is used in Louisiana cajun and creole cooking.  Personally, my favorite is Sofrito, which is Garlic, Onions and Tomato. 

[Evildrider]

I hope to hell that there's one more round of beta invites. I would hate to pre-order solely to get access to the "head-start" test/magic patch is coming period.

They just said there is a new build coming in a few days.  Full character wipes and such incoming.

[eldaec]

You are insane.

A Sofrito is any mix of finely chopped and braised veg.

Onions, celery and peppers would be a mediocre mix of uninteresting veg, wheras onions celery and carrot is a necessary component of anything awesome from French or Italian cooking, and as a veg group, once you dominate French and Italian cookery I see little need to care what a bunch of redstate reading lunatics think.

[luckton]

I hope to hell that there's one more round of beta invites. I would hate to pre-order solely to get access to the "head-start" test/magic patch is coming period.

They just said there is a new build coming in a few days.  Full character wipes and such incoming.

Why does that seem to be the response heard after every game show this year?  Heard it after E3, Gamescon, the PAXs...I mean, I get it.  You make new game builds to make the game better, but maybe a different answer would be nice.  Like, I dunno, details?

[Furiously]

I'm starting to get sick of their "Order now, so you can start playing sooner..." emails.

And fascinating.... 

It is bell peppers.

Unless you are cooking Italian or French.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_trinity_%28cuisine%29

[Ingmar]

You are insane.

A Sofrito is any mix of finely chopped and braised veg.

Onions, celery and peppers would be a mediocre mix of uninteresting veg, wheras onions celery and carrot is a necessary component of anything awesome from French or Italian cooking, and as a veg group, once you dominate French and Italian cookery I see little need to care what a bunch of redstate reading lunatics think.

She's right, though. The term as a culinary expression started with Creole/Cajun cuisine (Catholic heritage and all that, and it is onions, celery, bell pepper in that cuisine), and then started seeing use in other cuisines. Whether you like the food or not (I don't actually care much for Cajun food myself) is irrelevant to the pedantry involved!

As for sofrito: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sofrito

[Nevermore]

You are insane.

But I'm not wrong. 

[eldaec]

I'm starting to get sick of their "Order now, so you can start playing sooner..." emails.

And fascinating.... 

It is bell peppers.

Unless you are cooking Italian or French.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_trinity_%28cuisine%29

If you are going to this much trouble, why on earth would you not be cooking Italian or French?!

And that is the worst wikipedia article I have ever seen.

[Nevermore]

Because carrots are the devil.  Or maybe carrots just weren't common in southern Louisiana back in the early 1800s when the French settled the area, so they substituted what they had available and created a new kind of local cuisine.

Why are you so angry?  Did a roving band of bell peppers assault you as a child?  Or are you just mad because you are so very, very wrong about this? 

[Ingmar]

He's just sore that his own regional cooking consists of fried fish accompanied by Chateau Thames Embankment.

[eldaec]

Vader salutes f13's dedication in posting 10,000 times about this bullshit and motors on with us to page 300.



He also disapproves of your lack of faith in carrots.

[koro]

If I could just throw out a SWTOR-related post...you know, here in the SWTOR thread, the devs chatted a little bit about tanks and classes not too long ago...

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8741945#edit8741945

There are no specific 'tank classes'. This is where The Old Republic is different. There are roles you can specialize into by spending points in your skill trees. Which roles are available is based on your AC, but you will ultimately pick one or try to hybridize by spending points in multiple skill trees.

A DPS-specced Juggernaut is not even close to a tank specced Juggernaut. He will go down just as fast (or slightly slower due to slightly higher defense) than a Marauder.

Heavy armor is nice (we're talking about single digit % defense increase over medium nice), but in terms of game mechanics, what matters ultimately is your cumulative ability to survive or avoid damage. One AC can have armor, another AC can have the ability to deflect more damage, the resulting ability to survive would be the same.

That post by Georg is either so poorly-worded that it's easily misread, or it betrays a lack of understanding of some of the basic concepts and mechanics of the game he is a system lead for.

[Malakili]

If I could just throw out a SWTOR-related post...you know, here in the SWTOR thread, the devs chatted a little bit about tanks and classes not too long ago...

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8741945#edit8741945

There are no specific 'tank classes'. This is where The Old Republic is different. There are roles you can specialize into by spending points in your skill trees. Which roles are available is based on your AC, but you will ultimately pick one or try to hybridize by spending points in multiple skill trees.

A DPS-specced Juggernaut is not even close to a tank specced Juggernaut. He will go down just as fast (or slightly slower due to slightly higher defense) than a Marauder.

Heavy armor is nice (we're talking about single digit % defense increase over medium nice), but in terms of game mechanics, what matters ultimately is your cumulative ability to survive or avoid damage. One AC can have armor, another AC can have the ability to deflect more damage, the resulting ability to survive would be the same.

That post by Georg is either so poorly-worded that it's easily misread, or it betrays a lack of understanding of some of the basic concepts and mechanics of the game he is a system lead for.

So.. basically they do have tank classes, he is just defining it as tank spec instead?  Woo, really pushing the genre forward with this one.  I don't even have a problem with it *really* I just think its funny because he starts with "This is where The Old Republic is different. "

[Paelos]

Every time I hear one of the devs talk about how different SWTOR is going to be, I get an image of Vanilla Ice explaining how his song is different from David Bowie's.

[koro]

That post by Georg is either so poorly-worded that it's easily misread, or it betrays a lack of understanding of some of the basic concepts and mechanics of the game he is a system lead for.

So.. basically they do have tank classes, he is just defining it as tank spec instead?  Woo, really pushing the genre forward with this one.  I don't even have a problem with it *really* I just think its funny because he starts with "This is where The Old Republic is different. "

It's not just that. To put it in WoW terms, imagine an Arms Warrior who could, for the cost of a single global cooldown, switch to Defensive Stance and be about 90% as capable a tank as a full-on Prot Warrior while being able to easily switch back to an offensive stance and dish out only 5% less DPS than a Fury Warrior that has been spun off into its own class, has no other group utility besides "do damage", and is limited to Mail.

And this is not seen as a problem.

[eldaec]

All devs do this ridiculous dance of pretending their game is completely different to WoW and end up saying idiotic things as a result.

It is almost worth setting up a forum account just to troll them about it (it isn't).

[tmp]

What may feel entirely awesome in single player game (where you have to only rely on yourself and only have yourself to blame for screwups) can feel quite different when you fail the experience for the 20th time because of yet another random mistake made by one of your group of four/five.

Broken-ass MMO design.

No, basic math. 20% chance of failure for single player means 80% chance to succeed for said single player, but only ~30% for the group of five with the same skill and difficulty level. You either take that into account and make the chance of failure smaller, or you get ready to eat bags of dicks, repeatedly.

[luckton]

Vader salutes f13's dedication in posting 10,000 times about this bullshit and motors on with us to page 300.

/snip

He also disapproves of your lack of faith in carrots.

http://i.imgur.com/HmOEM.jpg

[Rasix]

You deserve death. 

[Lantyssa]

Every time I hear one of the devs talk about how different SWTOR is going to be, I get an image of Vanilla Ice explaining how his song is different from David Bowie's.