SWTOR

[Margalis]

Ahh ok. So the one person that wrote a negative review is totally right and all the positive reviewers are just lying. Thanks for the info!

Every impression I've heard of the game has been similar to this one people are arguing about - that it's standard fetch quests with light sabers. Are the positive previews that exist (and honestly I have not seen any) positive because it's Star Wars or because it's a good game?

[Ingmar]

The Ars Technica one linked in this very thread is quite positive, and seems to come down on the side of 'good game'.

[Kageru]

I can't really take this guy totally seriously.   Why was it supposed to change the shape of the MMO template while leveling? Hell I HATE diku but after cataclysm leveling in WoW is a lot of fun (outside the unupdated BC+Wrath stuff).   The whole article reeks of him having some sort of weird expectations that got let down.

Because they've spent immense amounts of cash and time on a supposedly massively valuable IP, combined with their own "style", so coming out with "more of the same" is somewhat of a disappointment? It is not surprising though, to make that money back they need to appeal to the lowest common denominator and lure WoW players.

Besides, watching all that money and self-confidence run off the tracks is its own pleasure.

[Velorath]

However, Bioware hyped it as different, so if it's not they have only themselves to blame when folks are disappointed.

I think Bioware has put enough information out there about the game, that even people who are only half paying attention should be able to come to reasonable expectations at this point.  There are probably a dozen people in this thread who could have written that same preview without even playing the game.  That's my only real problem with the preview.  There's just no real insight there.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Reading this thread from start to finish, it's fun watching expectations slowly erode before my eyes. 

[Reg]

Whose expectations are eroding? I'm just seeing the usual stuff from the same people who have been anxious for the failure of the game all along. Perhaps you're thinking of another forum where people with irrational expectations of the game and are now shocked and dismayed that it's an MMO with the usual features of MMOs have been posting?

[Sky]

I love that people are getting upset because it's not living up to PR.

I mean...how could it after Rift REVOLUTIONIZED MMO? 

[Count Nerfedalot]

oh, speaking of Rift.  Anyone playing anymore?

[Nebu]

oh, speaking of Rift.  Anyone playing anymore?

Very few.  I'm about done with it myself.

[Amaron]

oh, speaking of Rift.  Anyone playing anymore?

All my friend who actually think WoW is good are still playing RIFT.   All the others have mostly quit.

[Simond]

Which means they'll do the same for SWTOR and any other diku-clones that get released.

[UnSub]

Reading this thread from start to finish, it's fun watching expectations slowly erode before my eyes. 

It was a complete journey from "it's BioWare!" to "it's BioWare AUSTIN!".

[Lakov_Sanite]

Rift wasn't bad, it was just BLAND. the whole game screams "generic fantasy setting" none of the charm wow had and to some extent still has, though its 5 years dated now.

[Rendakor]

Rift had too many more "This is worse than WoW" moments and not enough "This is better". I liked it well enough, but there were just too many little annoyances and most of my friends are still playing WoW so I went back.

[Sky]

Rift wasn't bad, it was just BLAND. the whole game screams "generic fantasy setting" none of the charm wow had and to some extent still has, though its 5 years dated now.

That was my main issue. The soul/role system was really great, but it was bolted onto generic fantasy.

[Surlyboi]

Sky summed it up fairly well. You had Time Travel, ferchrissakes. How could you not go interesting places with that? Jesus, bolt some steampunk shit on that bitch or something.

[DLRiley]

Guild Wars...

Thread has been owned.

[Amaron]

Which means they'll do the same for SWTOR and any other diku-clones that get released.

For me like I said all my WoW friends are still playing RIFT.   That alone is a major accomplishment since they almost always go back to WoW right away when a patch comes out.  If SWTOR can do the same then things will finally start to get interesting.

[Velorath]

Reading this thread from start to finish, it's fun watching expectations slowly erode before my eyes. 

Is this supposed to be green?  People here have been so vocally dead set in their opinions that this resembles a politics thread.

[Sky]

For me like I said all my WoW friends are still playing RIFT.   That alone is a major accomplishment since they almost always go back to WoW right away when a patch comes out.  If SWTOR can do the same then things will finally start to get interesting.

Me, I'd focus on the people who aren't or don't want to play WoW.

Because it seems everything else ends with 'I'm going back to WoW'.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Some people are going back t wow but the big problem is a lot of people aren't. A lot of the people aren't going back to wow because it's simply too old now, they've been playing wow so long they can't even go back. A game doesn't need to be different than wow to get all those people, it just needs to be on the same level.

On that note, even of swtor is a complete diku clone is COULD still do great if it's executed well but I don't see that happening.

[Rasix]

Me, I'd focus on the people who aren't or don't want to play WoW.

Because it seems everything else ends with 'I'm going back to WoW'.

Cataclysm is helping to alleviate that.  Rift it doesn't make me want to play WoW the same way Age of Conan, LOTRO, EQ2, and others did.  This really isn't all Rift either, as others have pointed out, it's pretty bland.  It's very well executed and has great, functional graphics, but it's safe.

Usually I'm drawn back to WoWs great accessibility in the face of a current game's overwhelming incompetence in some area.  With my current play patterns, I'm just not hitting that with Rift.  I'm not hitting the end game, and even if I did, WoW isn't the WoW of WOLK anymore.  I can't just go back and faceroll my way into some epics.  So, it's now my filler game inbetween single player game releases.

Like Lakov said, SWTOR could do well even if it's WoW with laser swords and there might be some real opportunity here as WoW continues to stumble as it ages.

[Amaron]

Me, I'd focus on the people who aren't or don't want to play WoW.

Because it seems everything else ends with 'I'm going back to WoW'.

So would I but as long as the Diku arena is uncrowded the people with money will keep trying to clone WoW.     If we have RIFT,WoW,TOR,GW2 all crowding the market though then they will be forced to differentiate.  

[Malakili]

Me, I'd focus on the people who aren't or don't want to play WoW.

Because it seems everything else ends with 'I'm going back to WoW'.

So would I but as long as the Diku arena is uncrowded the people with money will keep trying to clone WoW.     If we have RIFT,WoW,TOR,GW2 all crowding the market though then they will be forced to differentiate.  

The problem with MMOs is that whatever is the most popular is going to outshine pretty much everything else by a wide margin when ti comes to profits.  At least since WoW.  If you want to compete with WoW, you have to spend like Blizzard, and if you want to spend like Blizzard, you can't sustain it with a small player base.  That means that unless you blow the doors off with an awesome release, you probably aren't going to get a second chance.  It only appears uncrowded because everyone is looking up at the pedestal WoW is on, and forgetting to look down at the floor that is littered with the corpses dozens of DIKUs that fizzled.

[Sky]

Which is why I wouldn't try competing with WoW.

[UnSub]

If you want to compete with WoW, you have to spend like Blizzard, and if you want to spend like Blizzard, you can't sustain it with a small player base. 

EA is spending like - and probably in excess - of Blizzard.

The larger difference between now and 2004 is the range of choice players have. Players are much quicker to jump off a bad launch and go to one of many titles, including F2P, that offer a better experience.

At its heart, EA is trying to compete with Activision and its revenue juggernaut. They are definitely competing for the same space in the market of 'multi-million Western player' MMO.

[DLRiley]

Which is why I wouldn't try competing with WoW.

No such thing unless you don't charge a subscriptions.

[Murgos]

Which is why I wouldn't try competing with WoW.

No such thing unless you don't charge a subscriptions.

WoW does not, and never has, equaled the entire gaming market.

[DLRiley]

Which is why I wouldn't try competing with WoW.

No such thing unless you don't charge a subscriptions.

WoW does not, and never has, equaled the entire gaming market.

Hyperbole much? WoW is an mmorpg, if you make a mmorpg and charge 15 dollars a month you are hence force competing with WoW. Unless WoW is unavailable in the region of the world you are selling to.

[Mrbloodworth]

I will likely pick this up, and just see how it goes.

[Sky]

No such thing unless you don't charge a subscriptions.

WoW is a very specific kind of mmo. There are other customers not being serviced by WoW. Rift went for the basics, a competent game...but the real problem with WoW isn't the game itself, it's the community. You simply cannot bank on breaking those community bonds. It might happen, but I wouldn't be gambling six figures on it. I'd be gambling on smaller, polished niche titles that gain and hold a smaller, non-WoW audience.

In the case of TOR (and Rift) I think there will be enough initial interest to recoup a healthy chunk of the development budget and both games look to be competent enough to continue to generate a decent amount of revenue, as long as you don't expect meelions of players subbed.

F2P is a bubble.

[DLRiley]

No such thing unless you don't charge a subscriptions.

WoW is a very specific kind of mmo. There are other customers not being serviced by WoW. Rift went for the basics, a competent game...but the real problem with WoW isn't the game itself, it's the community. You simply cannot bank on breaking those community bonds. It might happen, but I wouldn't be gambling six figures on it. I'd be gambling on smaller, polished niche titles that gain and hold a smaller, non-WoW audience.

In the case of TOR (and Rift) I think there will be enough initial interest to recoup a healthy chunk of the development budget and both games look to be competent enough to continue to generate a decent amount of revenue, as long as you don't expect meelions of players subbed.

F2P is a bubble.

WoW is a very generic game built for the sole purpose of appealing to a very wide audience, even if that audience is only the people who would have played EQ1 but for whatever reason didn't. Sure they are customers not being serviced by wow. They play guild wars. And that's not really an mmo (according to most people) so the next big audience are the people who play EvE. And we are not finding 300k more people willing to sit through EVE anytime this decade. The only way TOR will function is if at some point it is a good enough game on its own. Gaming communities are built around people actually liking the damn game not by migration. The 'something' that Rift got right despite its blandness is that on its own without the friend list/guild mates/ clan blah blah people actually like the game, at least at enough key points.

F2P brings things back to what they used to be. People are lessed married to mmo's now that you can pick and drop them as you please independent of the money you spend initially and continually. In the good old days, games were made people play them and if you like video games you look for more games to play. MMo says, game is made, people play that game and only play that game. The only be one mentality hurts gaming. 

[Samprimary]

Sure they are customers not being serviced by wow. They play guild wars. And that's not really an mmo (according to most people) so rlag frab nryjatjn jrrghjrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Ratman_tf]

Which is why I wouldn't try competing with WoW.

No such thing unless you don't charge a subscriptions.

WoW does not, and never has, equaled the entire gaming market.

Hyperbole much? WoW is an mmorpg, if you make a mmorpg and charge 15 dollars a month you are hence force competing with WoW. Unless WoW is unavailable in the region of the world you are selling to.

WoW is just like Eve Online! 

[Lakov_Sanite]

WoW was simplistic but certainly not generic.  You had nomadic orcs, native american minotaur people, goth zombies and jamaican trolls and lots of other 'hooks' for people to start the game up and say "oh this is awesome!" and going to undercity or thunderbluuf for the first time truly felt that way for many.  No game is really capturing that feeling, that initial 'hook' wow had.  Even if you copy every game system in wow you still need to dress to impress. 

two noteworthy examples:
AoC- it was pretty, it grabbed you right off the bat but the actual game mechanics and unfinished zones as levels progressed really killed it for many.

Rift- Great game systems, everything ran smooth(until you did an outdoor boss with 50 people there) and questing to the end cap was seamless for me. Except rift was boring, the whole setting felt bland and washed out, interesting premises but no good 'hooks' hell even the races were all basically the same in style.

you don't need to go niche, you dont need to re-invent the wheel, you just need to upgrade the popular model that exists.