SWTOR

[Comstar]

I hope the Trooper sounds like the Heavy Weapon guy from Team Fortress 2.  The Bounty Hunter needs to sound like the Sniper.

[WindupAtheist]

And I'm saying they don't have to set it up like that, unless they're buy into some gonzo EU garbage where a single Jedi can fart and blow away planets with his force powered gas cloud.

You mean like the movies, where even a 12 or 13 year old apprentice Jedi could kill a handful of clones by himself before being gunned down in front of Jimmy Smits? Letting Boba Fett fight on equal terms with a Jedi is one thing, but I can't believe they made Cannon Fodder... er, Trooper... a class in this game.

[Margalis]

Look at their feet.  The animations seem to be:  you plant your feet in place and then only move your upper body some.  That's what looks and feels wrong; swordplay involves a lot of side-stepping around.  You can't just stand in place.

They are obviously animating the upper and lower body relatively independently and not hiding it very well. It's Earth Defense Force aiming while running level of bad. (EDF is awesome though)

[Fabricated]

And I'm saying they don't have to set it up like that, unless they're buy into some gonzo EU garbage where a single Jedi can fart and blow away planets with his force powered gas cloud.

You mean like the movies, where even a 12 or 13 year old apprentice Jedi could kill a handful of clones by himself before being gunned down in front of Jimmy Smits? Letting Boba Fett fight on equal terms with a Jedi is one thing, but I can't believe they made Cannon Fodder... er, Trooper... a class in this game.

Maybe....this IP isn't really as fit for an MMO as we thought?

[Draegan]

Its more suited for an "action" based MMOG like Global Agenda play style.

[Typhon]

did someone say action?!

[Fordel]

I don't really think people who rolled Stormtrooper would enjoy having to form a ten man raid or something to kill one dude who rolled Jedi.

What if the Trooper was his own squad of guys!

[Musashi]

did someone say action?!

You are so gonna die.

[Kageru]

That looked distinctly average. I mean that is their combat system as posed, pre-planned and cut-up to look good as possible and it was still dull. Even champion's dreadful combat could be dressed up to look decent (power armor) with careful use of editing and camera angles. And yes, extremely champions like in appearance. Doing the same half hearted animations and half body animations so that moving around won't interrupt things, a plastic doll-like appearance so the choreography works and you can re-use customisation options and power effects that are pretty dull even when shown in ideal situations like this. Though there's something else wrong with those animations, always looks like the motion is chopped and artificial, maybe something more stylised works better in a game than motion captured (which I assume they're doing). And the lightsaber "blocking" is neat but how does that work in mass combat where the model is going to be playing attack animations all the time?

And what sort of fun is a game mechanic where you summon up your own personal chest high wall and hide behind it. How incredibly static. Meanwhile I noticed bounty hunter PvP stuns, yay. Also when they mentioned "decisions" in combat it wasn't some sort of attempt to do an interlock system (block high and riposte) but instead at the power choice level (throw grenade? use freeze power?). There's not really enough detail to confirm anything but what was said was generic enough it could have been said of champions... or WoW.

The main problem though is not whether it is better than champions. Champions was a game designed to fail gracefully. This is meant to be a "block-buster" MMO and has had immense amounts of money invested. It should be leaving a "wow!" impression.

[Ollie]

On a more positive note, at least the combat video confirmed that Bioware is still committed to designing a game that is playable on slightly older rigs. Stylized simplicity and low-frame animations should bode well for performance, especially since the launch is still almost a year away. Plenty of time to make sure things scale well on both ends of the spectrum, and give gamers on a budget as well as top-shelf owners an enjoyable experience.

[eldaec]

How incredibly static.

This was my thought as well. A lot of the combat seemed to be explictly designed to around avoiding environmental or positional considerations. The 'make your own cover wherever you happen to be' power being the most obvious.

I can just about handle this in a melee focussed environment (moving to closer to a move, countermove system seems to make more sense in melee - though I see no evidence of that here either), but in a majority ranged environment I'd expect mass effect style cover and positioning considerations at a minimum.

[Merusk]

Man, I hated this conversation when it happend in 2000.  Nice to see it's still the same shit, different decade.

Maybe....this IP isn't really as fit for an MMO as we thought?

No, it's not. Never has been. Too many power imbalances, inconsistencies and too much room for 'omg you have to have <minor point from fourth-tier spin-off product> or else this will fail!'.   It's a horrible IP for a MMO.

[Musashi]

To be fair, the only world in which any of this power imbalance shit matters is the one in which the seven nerds in this thread live.  They have like six or seven guys with fingers in every forum.  Or maybe it's the same guys with different handles.  I blame WUA.  He seems to be their king.

To everyone else it's just whacking foozles with shiny sword.

[Pezzle]

I would love for the game to succeed.  Unfortunately they have strikes against them.  You know would would go a long way?  NOT LETTING PLAYERS BE JEDI/SITH.  I know fanboys will wet their pants but it is easy enough to include them in the game without being played.  They could even be involved in some combat without being players.  Without force powers everything else in the star wars universe gains more viability.  You can knock off the flashy and focus on some substance.  Of course this will not happen, especially with the mindset represented by the video, but we can dream.

[SnakeCharmer]

I would love for the game to succeed.  Unfortunately they have strikes against them.  You know would would go a long way?  NOT LETTING PLAYERS BE JEDI/SITH.  I know fanboys will wet their pants but it is easy enough to include them in the game without being played.  They could even be involved in some combat without being players.  Without force powers everything else in the star wars universe gains more viability.  You can knock off the flashy and focus on some substance.  Of course this will not happen, especially with the mindset represented by the video, but we can dream.

Only person dreaming is you.  Party of one.  That idea is about as intelligent as making players grind Architect, Dancer, Tailor, and Fencer to be a Jedi.  Which is to say, pretty fucking stupid.  As in 'lower than room temperature IQ' stupid.

If a player can't immediately log in and melt face with a saber in a Star Wars game, then the developers failed entirely.

[Pezzle]

I am going to disagree.  There idea that everyone can be a Jedi really only works in a single player game.  In a MMO it becomes silly.  That is not Star Wars.  If you want that kind of game you certainly can make it without using the Star Wars franchise. 

[WindupAtheist]

I blame WUA.  He seems to be their king.

It's good to be the king.

I am going to disagree.  There idea that everyone can be a Jedi really only works in a single player game.  In a MMO it becomes silly.  That is not Star Wars.  If you want that kind of game you certainly can make it without using the Star Wars franchise.

"Oh please, are we supposed to believe there could be dozens of Paladins and Druids and Death Knights just standing around every tavern in Azeroth? Let's make Peasant the only class, anything else would be silly."

Yeah, that'd sell. 

[Pezzle]

Sorry, I thought we were talking about Star Wars, not WoW.  I must be in the wrong thread.

[Velorath]

I am going to disagree.  There idea that everyone can be a Jedi really only works in a single player game.  In a MMO it becomes silly.  That is not Star Wars.  If you want that kind of game you certainly can make it without using the Star Wars franchise. 

If you want a game where everybody can be Jedi, you can do it without the Star Wars franchise?

Is this guy a joke account?

[Pezzle]

Star Wars is not about face melting with a light saber.

[Typhon]

Lol, more non-English speakers in this thread!  They type words that I just don't understand!

[WindupAtheist]

Star Wars is not about face melting with a light saber.

[Margalis]

This was my thought as well. A lot of the combat seemed to be explictly designed to around avoiding environmental or positional considerations.

I suspect part of the problem is that designing environments to have convenient cover points would be tough, look bad, and if they were everywhere everyone should logically be able to use them.

Honestly the idea that only some classes can use cover is pretty dumb. All cover is is an object that sits between you and incoming fire, it doesn't take any talent to use it other than the ability to stand behind something. Saying that only some classes can use cover means what exactly, that other classes are too stupid to stand behind walls, or walls only block bullets for some classes? Making some classes actually create their own cover does make more sense in some ways than only some classes being able to stand behind a boulder and not get hit.

What they should have said from the start is that some classes use personal force field generators, rather than "some classes use cover."

[Nightblade]

Enough with the fucking lightsabers!!  Force powers get used so much they have become boring.  Oh hey, Jim, this video sequence we made is not flashy enough.  Throw a few guys with lightsabers into each sequence.

Someone has been watching Red Letter Media.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfBhi6qqFLA

[Ratman_tf]

Cover is irrelevant anyway. The Jedi will just jump over it. 

[pxib]

I can just about handle this in a melee focussed environment (moving to closer to a move, countermove system seems to make more sense in melee - though I see no evidence of that here either), but in a majority ranged environment I'd expect mass effect style cover and positioning considerations at a minimum.

So far as I can tell, cover is the SW:TOR equivalent of stealth... it's the class-defining ability of Smugglers and Imperial Agents. As much as the video focuses on OMG CINEMATIC scenery to background its CINEMATIC COMBAT, I imagine that outside of missions tailored for specific classes there will be plenty of pillars and chest-high walls available.

[Sky]

And much liike SWG, I bet you can't jump over them.

[Soln]

Or invoking SWG NGE again, you can be sure any face melting RDPS will own over melee anything.  Right now I'm seeing 7 ranged classes vs Jedi Knight (if you don't include the Jedi CC/Heal Consular class).

[Fabricated]

I don't know why I remember this but there was a prestige class thing introduced in the pen-and-paper Star Wars RPG that was non force-users who use light sabers.

Which is really funny because they didn't write the class to fix the rules that basically made you accidentally cleave your own fingers and limbs off at alarming rates if you tried to use a light saber without being a force-user.

[UnSub]

IIRC, in that particular Star Wars PnP RPG, using a lightsaber could be a death sentence of its wielder. Never played it myself, but had some friends who played and they had a game where their novice Jedi managed to slice both his own legs off due to a failed roll.

It's funny, but it's not Star Wars. 

[LK]

I always found it weaksauce in KOTOR when they introduced vibro blades or whatever it was that would allow unskilled melée to compete with Jedi.

[Fabricated]

I always found it weaksauce in KOTOR when they introduced vibro blades or whatever it was that would allow unskilled melée to compete with Jedi.

The cortosis or whatever that lets stuff not be melted by lightsabers was in all the original lore I think, or maybe it's all the expanded universe stuff. It wasn't invented from whole cloth for the original KOTOR games though if I recall right.

[eldaec]

I always found it weaksauce in KOTOR when they introduced vibro blades or whatever it was that would allow unskilled melée to compete with Jedi.

The cortosis or whatever that lets stuff not be melted by lightsabers was in all the original lore I think, or maybe it's all the expanded universe stuff. It wasn't invented from whole cloth for the original KOTOR games though if I recall right.

EU bullshit I'm afraid. I'm fine with the part where its all "there's this metal which lightsabres can't cut through", it makes sense in context that such a thing exists. What I struggle with is widespread melee weapon combat, with melee weapons based precisely on your generic fantasy shlock - this makes absolutely no sense in context.

I guess kotor included it because you don't get enough jedi v jedi battles and melee vs ranged battles usually suck monkey balls.

Personally I think the least they could have done is made the non-lightsabre weapons shock batons or chainsaws and such. Just including a lightsabre that doesn't glow and saying 'uh, it's uh, a VIBROsword' was a bit rubbish.

Right now I'm seeing 7 ranged classes vs Jedi Knight (if you don't include the Jedi CC/Heal Consular class).

The "8" classes are 4 mirrored pairs, Tank-Jedi, Chanter/Cleric-Jedi, Long-range-DPS-guy, and Short-range-DPS-guy. So one quarter of the classes are melee specialists, which will likely turn into just under half the players once you allow for the jedi-bias.

Actually, one benefit of the star wars IP is that the devs have been able to make the classes most necessary for grouping also likely to be the most popular to play. Assuming grouping is encouraged in this game, I doubt it'll be difficult to find a tank or a healer.

[Murgos]

The background areas looked great.  The character models/animations and special effects looked like wet used toilet paper.

[Crumbs]

[...]
I'd rather be the guy that's optimistic about a game that ends up being complete shit than the cynical fuck that pops into a topic to say "hey guys, this game's gonna suck" just so he can say "I told you so" later on.

This!  Not that I'll put my cheerleader skirt on for just any game (I never bought SWG because SimBeru was just  to me), but an action game where I get to kick a lot of ass in a setting I like?  Where are my pom-poms?!  IT'S GONNA BE GREAT1!!1!!

SWG had its flaws, but raiding player cities and blowing up their bases in 200 v 200 player open world battles were pretty epic.  Stuff like that wasn't facilitated by the game though; the players were responsible for that content.