SWTOR

[AutomaticZen]

IT HAS A HAN SOLO TYPE OF CLASS OMG SHOCKING!!!!

What's to talk about?

On the topic at hand, to me saying that a game must have abilities on short timers is like saying a game must have co-op Toads whose limbs grow really big and funny looking when you punch people. Hard and fast rules about anything are usually wrong, especially ones that require a great deal of context to be evaluated.

Did you just reference Battletoads?

[tmp]

I know it's hard to stay on topic, but a good rule of thumb is if you mention a game not named SWTOR, it's likely not on topic.

Game mechanix and wishlists are one thing, but talking about what WoW has versus Guildwars vs this mechanic in EQ2? That isn't exactly making this a SWTOR thread.

SWTOR devs said they're trying to make combat that's not really different from MMO staple but at the same time more cinematic and faster. People are speculating if that can make good game or not, using other games as reference.

If you mention a game not named SWTOR it may be on topic still, when it's used as example of what works and what doesn't mechanics-wise when said mechanics is something SWTOR is going to utilize (or not)

[Lantyssa]

I just want to read two pages of posts that are at least speculative about SWTOR or info they have released, instead of comparing MMO epicfail/epicw1n from other threads. It's not like Bioware is looking here for ideas, that's what their forums are for.

They're not looking for ideas there either, which is partly why it's stupid they launched them this early.

[Riggswolfe]

We don't actually know anything about SWTOR.  They are releasing the "name" of a planet or class about once a month.  There is no information about mechanics, PvP, crafting, etc.  That makes it hard to talk about. 

Yes and no. The stuff that has been released is very easy to speculate about in the context of other games.

For instance, I read the smuggler write up and it just screams ranged dps/stealth class (Wow Rogue/Hunter hybrid) to me. The trooper? A tank. The Bounty Hunter? I'm on the fence but I'm leaning towards ranged DPS/tank hybrid.

The storyline stuff sounds to me something like the story quests in LOTRO but tailored to each class rather than a general "Epic" quest for everyone.

Etc, etc.

[Merusk]

Make Jedi Healers and watch the anguish roll off the potential player base in waves.

[Montague]

Make Jedi Healers and watch the anguish roll off the potential player base in waves.

If I didn't have a release-day WoW paladin that would have been funny. 

[Tannhauser]

Make Jedi Healers and watch the anguish roll off the potential player base in waves.

WTF? Are you trying to start civil unrest?

[lamaros]

So, every class in this game is combat focused?

[Malakili]

Make Jedi Healers and watch the anguish roll off the potential player base in waves.

If I didn't have a release-day WoW paladin that would have been funny. 

You'll spam Flash of Light, and you'll LIKE it.

[Lantyssa]

So, every class in this game is combat focused?

From what little we've been told, it seems that way.

[Zhiroc]

So, every class in this game is combat focused?

I would have to say that is the implication. Each class's story is intended to be fairly long, and involve choices. Healer is a bit passive, though I can imagine that it could involve making moral choices... but can that be stretched out to hundred of hours of content?

There's also the statement that each class is intended to represent some "iconic" character from the movies, of which there is none as healer. And if the game is KotOR-like in terms of items and Jedi powers, there's no need for combat medics (though Sith may be left out a little, as Healing was a "light-side" power--not restricted, but just more costly in terms of force points--there's still the medpacks otherwise).

[DLRiley]

Assuming standard mmorpg mechanics are firmly in place, are they aiming for a 1 to 1 relationship in pvp, meaning that classes are balanced around 1v1 fights, 1 to many relationship, where classes or certain classes can handle multiple targets, which will either slow down 1v1 combat to a crawl or make death happen regularly in 2-3 seconds. Are they counting on even teams or are we going by open world blob thinking? God I wonder if the dev team even asked those questions to themselves.

[Lantyssa]

No, they'e said they're going for the feel of being heroic, where you're fighting multiple opponents at once.  Kind of like what CoX intended.

[DLRiley]

Coh was originally a pve game. Are you just confirming that they have no long term plans for pvp?

[Lantyssa]

Magic Eight Ball says: Future cloudy.  Ask again.

[Venkman]

No, they'e said they're going for the feel of being heroic, where you're fighting multiple opponents at once.  Kind of like what CoX intended.

He was asking about PvP. You can't really do that well and be Heroic, unless one sides got the heroics and the other side gets to play a full squad against you.

Mind you, I still think that'd friggin rock if someone did it right. But I haven't seen it done right yet, though I never did get a chance to try CoV Mastermind in PvP. Even character+pet seems hard enough.

[tmp]

He was asking about PvP. You can't really do that well and be Heroic, unless one sides got the heroics and the other side gets to play a full squad against you.

Dunno, the Jedi vs Sith stuff is often enough 1v1 or similar fights and it's still pretty heroic because it's well established with the audience that either guy involved in the combat is capable of wiping the floor with dozen regular people, they just met their larger-than-life match. The unstoppable force meets immovable object kind of heroic.

[Venkman]

Yes, but that's the spectator's perspective. 1v1 PvP is 1v1 PvP. Even if both players are hurling planets at each other, the question is still whether PvP is balanced 1v1 or Group v Group.

That's important imho because if Jedi/Sith are balanced 1v1, it means everyone else can't show up. And if they say 1 v Group to keep it on lore, then that's something we've not really seen yet.

Which really just means that a few posts later, the question still isn't answered

[Hayduke]

I'd rather play a droid or smuggler than a jedi tbh.  But they'd never be cool enough to put in droids .  When I was a kid I was always more attracted to the technology and Harrison Fordiness of the series, not the dopey sword fights.

[tmp]

Well, the smuggler is in and as far as droids go i'd expect them to show up as companions for the players if nothing else -- doubt they would make a cameo of one in the cinematics if it wasn't somehow relevant...

[lamaros]

What I meant was more that the game seems to be nothing more than combat. Healer is still a combat class to me as they don't have skills that are useful out of combat.

What I meant was are there other aspects to game apart from PvE and PvP fighting? Player cities? Player houses? Player shops? Player crafting? Etc.

It's kinda sad that MMOs seem to have become "play a bad combat game with lots of friends, or even solo" and I'm hoping for someone to stretch those boundaries a bit. Not with this game it seems, though.

"Story" as a game's great step forward? Pah, I say, pah!

[Koyasha]

Player houses would be cool, player shops are annoying (yeah, the Bazaar was really cool, right?....o wait.)  Even if you could do it while logged out it's still annoying since you'd have to walk from stall to stall.  That's what auction house sort of interface is for.  As for crafting, it can fall into a volcano and I hope it does, cause I want crafting in my game like I want a bad case of crotch-rot.  Player cities are questionable at best and I don't think they would fit well into this particular game/setting.  Some games would do well with them, but I don't think TOR would at all.

[UnSub]

Coh was originally a pve game. Are you just confirming that they have no long term plans for pvp?

Thus far, the wild dreams stated designs of SWOR are a bit schizophrenic:

 - massively multiplayer
 - individual stories for all
 - groups can override the decisions of individuals regarding the path taken through content
 - end game being developered by raid guild members
 - the story will matter and you can't repeat story content so your choices matter

There will in all likelihood be PvP, but it will be arena- or scenario-based. I'm sure I've seen some sort of Sith vs Jedi treaty justification for allowing them not to attack each other on sight.

[DLRiley]

Despite the trailer, this game doesn't sound like any special. Maybe if it doesn't play like an mmo and actually does create a half decent rpg i can play with buddies then I may play the game a few months after launch solely for the pve aspect if it is that good. It may last me 3 months before I remind myself that I can replay or buy a better rpg at any time. I guess its too hard to ask for in modern mmo's for a giant flashing "enter pvp" button that magically wisps me away to an opponent who actually wants to fight me on even terms no less, and isn't trying to kill me over some pve object like mining rights and shiny pointless castles. If Swotr was built to be that type of game and still had a story I would be jumping up and down like a fanboy, because that trailer was admittedly awesome. For now it barely blimps on radar.

[Nebu]

- end game being developered by raid guild members

 

They just lost me with that one.

[eldaec]

Yes, but that's the spectator's perspective. 1v1 PvP is 1v1 PvP. Even if both players are hurling planets at each other, the question is still whether PvP is balanced 1v1 or Group v Group.

That's important imho because if Jedi/Sith are balanced 1v1, it means everyone else can't show up. And if they say 1 v Group to keep it on lore, then that's something we've not really seen yet.

Which really just means that a few posts later, the question still isn't answered

You are being unnecessarily optimistic.

Jedi, Sith, and other classes will be balanced for equal numbers = equal power.

If you are lucky a few pve situations will be small group vs massed mobs.

The devs believe they'll make it seem heroic with shiny graphics and heroic text boxes.

[DLRiley]

 - groups can override the decisions of individuals regarding the path taken through content
 - end game being developered by raid guild members
 - the story will matter and you can't repeat story content so your choices matter

On second thought those 3 features makes this game sound like utter crap so i'm sticking with my policy of not supporting bad game design.

[Venkman]

Yes, but that's the spectator's perspective. 1v1 PvP is 1v1 PvP. Even if both players are hurling planets at each other, the question is still whether PvP is balanced 1v1 or Group v Group.

That's important imho because if Jedi/Sith are balanced 1v1, it means everyone else can't show up. And if they say 1 v Group to keep it on lore, then that's something we've not really seen yet.

Which really just means that a few posts later, the question still isn't answered

You are being unnecessarily optimistic.

Whose being optimistic? I'm just clarifying what the original question was.

Everything else in this thread is just ignorant theorycrafting. We have no idea what the game will be save what people are guessing by watching a few clips, twisting some words from carefully crafted interviews, and going by the succession of missed-promises and trainwrecks the lead dev team has been involved in over the year. That's fun and all as a passtime, but it's not worth getting anyone's panties in a bunch about.

[lamaros]

Player houses would be cool, player shops are annoying (yeah, the Bazaar was really cool, right?....o wait.)  Even if you could do it while logged out it's still annoying since you'd have to walk from stall to stall.  That's what auction house sort of interface is for.  As for crafting, it can fall into a volcano and I hope it does, cause I want crafting in my game like I want a bad case of crotch-rot.  Player cities are questionable at best and I don't think they would fit well into this particular game/setting.  Some games would do well with them, but I don't think TOR would at all.

Player houses are fun, but not a reason to play of itself. I'm talking about a game design that lets people 'play' something apart from just mindless simplistic combat. Just because something hasn't been done well to a point isn't really a reason to try if you ask me, so I don't think referencing a specifc MMO that tried some things and failed at them is really an argument.

The only game experience in most new MMOs seem to be combat focused, or single player focused, and I really don't get it. (Well, I do get it, they just want to make a game that they think will give them the most $$$). Why can't people start putting in other genre elements in? Strategy games offer a up a bit that could be used, why not include game elements that reward people who spend most of their time in game working on strategies, why doesn't it all have to be combat centred?

I would expect that new MMOs would be hoping to build beyond WoW, even if they build very close to it, but all I see from TOR so far is "story!" crap, which is just more singleplayer crap... 'MMOs: For people who love to play crap RPGs online and pay extra for it!'?

I guess I'm still hoping that one day a MMO will come out that includes fun combat as well as a fun political and economic game... EVE + WoW done well...

/rant

And if they say 1 v Group to keep it on lore, then that's something we've not really seen yet.

[/quote]

Eh? Jedi and Sith aren't going to be more powerful than any other class. Look at the way the Bounty Hunter class is written up,

Bounty Hunters are renowned for their versatility on the battlefield and their ability to go toe-to-toe with force-users.

[Malakili]

- end game being developered by raid guild members

 

They just lost me with that one.

Isn't that fairly run of the mill for big MMOs?

[SnakeCharmer]

If the end raid guild content takes about 6 people to complete?  Awesome.  If the end raid guild content takes 25 people?  Suckage. 

Give me a small tight nit guild over some massive nameless and faceless guild any day.

[Malakili]

If the end raid guild content takes about 6 people to complete?  Awesome.  If the end raid guild content takes 25 people?  Suckage. 

Give me a small tight nit guild over some massive nameless and faceless guild any day.

Large guilds don't need to be nameless and faceless.  The WoW guild I have been in since we were doing 40man instances has always been extremely friendly, largely cliqueless and and really quite tight nit.  Then again, we recruit people based on whether they will fit into this mold, and not purely for progression.  We have generally been in the top 3-4 guilds on the server but haven't generally threatened for the number 1 spot.  Anyway, it can be done, but it is a rarity.

There is a nice epic feeling you get from the large group content that I've never felt in smaller group content.  No, I haven't raided in any game in quite a long time, as I quite frankly got way burnt out on having to schedule my evenings so rigidly, but the content is generally quite a bit superior to the smaller group content that I've seen.

[Nebu]

Anyway, it can be done, but it is a rarity.

Which is exactly why most people are against 40 man raids.  They cater to a small minority.  Granted, the minority like them because it allows them to remain in the minority. 

If I could find a group of people to play with like you describe, I'd be a happy camper.  It's hard enough to find 5 other people worth playing with, let alone 40+.   

[Surlyboi]

If the end raid guild content takes about 6 people to complete?  Awesome.  If the end raid guild content takes 25 people?  Suckage. 

Give me a small tight nit guild over some massive nameless and faceless guild any day.

Fuck raids altogether.

[Koyasha]

Raids in general don't seem like that great a mechanic anyway.  Some people feel like massive fights like that are needed in order to justify an MMOG, but my ideal game would be one in which you're basically an adventuring party, AD&D style, in a world with other adventuring parties also doing things, where you sometimes come into conflict.  Granted, TOR is going to be pretty far from this, but their story and apparent focus on group gameplay and group story is a step in that direction.

Lamaros, I wouldn't mind seeing new concepts, but player housing/cities/shops isn't new concepts, it's old concepts and there's reasons why they're not that great.  Each can work in an appropriate setting, but TOR should in no way try to be that setting.  SWG already did that, TOR should focus on what is awesome about Star Wars, particularly what is awesome about Star Wars through the BioWare lens that gave us KOTOR.  Folding strategy elements in might be interesting, but every discussion I've seen about them comes to the conclusion that they are hard if not damn near impossible to implement in an MMOG context.

The whole story thing is going to turn out to be either awesome or a flop.  I don't really see much middle ground for it.  If it's a flop, TOR will probably not be anything to write home about.  If it's awesome, it will be huge for the online RPG market because there really aren't any RPG's that you can play multiplayer, and less that deliver continuing, updated content.