SWTOR

[sam, an eggplant]

Unless you're just playing the devil's advocate to keep the thread moving, there's no need to talk further about addons. SWTOR doesn't have them. Although, like Rift, I'll betcha they add em later on.

As for macros (which also aren't in SWTOR), WoW-style macros are fine, because they are very strictly limited. Rift-style macros aren't.

[Nevermore]

Again, there's a big difference between allowing addons and just being able to move the stupid mini map to a different spot.  The former I don't care about one way or the other.  Not having the latter is clownshoes.

[Bunk]

Wow. As in the exclamation rather than the game. The last two pages have done more to make me glad I never raided in WoW than anything else I've ever read. Basically two pages of "WoW was unplayable unless you had 15 third party mods that did everything for you automatically!!1!!"

(I do agree that you should be able to move UI components though)

[Nebu]

(I do agree that you should be able to move UI components though)

I'll agree here as well as resizing/keybinding. 

[Lakov_Sanite]

Does the ui even allow for multiple hotbars or is there a lot of shift/alt clicking involved? I actually like seeing all my buttons.

[Numtini]

People equate UI mods with active mods, which are really mini-programs. EQ2 doesn't have add ons as such, but it allows virtually unlimited UI replacement. I used Profit and I'm pretty sure there wasn't a single bit of the original UI left, but I think the only additional feature it added was one click healing and curing.

[koro]

Does the ui even allow for multiple hotbars or is there a lot of shift/alt clicking involved? I actually like seeing all my buttons.

You can have up to four visible hotbars. Most classes will need all four just to fit the skills they get on them.

I just want a goddamn UI scale option with the ability to move UI elements around. The UI was very obviously designed for a widescreen monitor with lots of screen real estate, so those of us still stuck in the land of 4:3 have a UI that takes up way too much room.

[Fabricated]

I can't recall in the ridiculous amount of press released by Bioware on this game, but didn't they specifically say they were working on an addon API and that it was going to go in some time after retail in a major patch? Same with a Dungeon Finder?

SWTOR's forums are easily as bad as WoW's the more I read them. The vocal minority there is pretty anti-LFD and anti-addon.

[luckton]

A Dungeon Finder was talked about by devs this year.  Won't be in release, but they have not denied it ever going in at all.

I seem to recall there being an option in the configuration for resizing the UI,,,I may be wrong.

[sam, an eggplant]

The same (very) vocal minority showed up in the Rift forums. And here, for that matter, assuming those guys aren't just being contrary. They lost in Rift, just like they will lose with SWTOR. Because they're wrong.

As for hotbars, you can have two hotbars at the bottom, one on the left, and one on the right. They are not resizable, movable, scalable, and you can't adjust transparency. You can hotkey each button individually, but there are a couple reserved keys unavailable-- not a big deal. I believe one of the bottom hotbars is lost once you get a companion-- I haven't actively played SWTOR in a couple months, I just login briefly with each patch to see what changed.

[Wolf]

ಠ_ಠ

[Merusk]

The vocal minority are those players that see DPS parses and threat-detectors as detrimental to the game and that's really what they're against, not add-ons in general.   My response is usually, "they wouldn't care if they didn't suck at playing the PvE grouping part so very much."

[Sheepherder]

As for custom UIs and addons, while they worked wonders for WoW, I think I've reached the point where I'm just indifferent about them.  If they ever allow for us to reskin the UI, let alone use addons, great.  But even WoW killed off some addons because they actually integrated the feature(s) in to the base UI.

And if the mods had never existed none of the XML / Lua guys at Blizzard would have said "Oh... that's neat."

The only one I usually ask people to install if they insist on playing without common raid mods is libheal, because it benefits everyone else who is running mods without impacting your gameplay at all. I know all of one person who healed raids in WoW without a single healing mod, and I think she's certifiably insane.

The "display incoming heals" part of libheal has been included in the Blizzard UI.

I once watched my younger brother solo heal Malchezzar on his paladin without mods because the other healer died in the first shadow nova.

Wow. As in the exclamation rather than the game. The last two pages have done more to make me glad I never raided in WoW than anything else I've ever read. Basically two pages of "WoW was unplayable unless you had 15 third party mods that did everything for you automatically!!1!!"

You're getting a false impression because people are picky about what they use.

[Draegan]

Did SWTOR turn on their combatlog in the last week?  As of a week ago it wasn't in.

[sam, an eggplant]

The vocal minority are those players that see DPS parses and threat-detectors as detrimental to the game and that's really what they're against, not add-ons in general.   My response is usually, "they wouldn't care if they didn't suck at playing the PvE grouping part so very much."

Right, they didn't know what they were doing and got kicked out of a group/raid/guild, and they feel that nobody will notice how much they suck without meters. I truly and honestly believe this.

[Paelos]

The vocal minority are those players that see DPS parses and threat-detectors as detrimental to the game and that's really what they're against, not add-ons in general.   My response is usually, "they wouldn't care if they didn't suck at playing the PvE grouping part so very much."

Right, they didn't know what they were doing and got kicked out of a group/raid/guild, and they feel that nobody will notice how much they suck without meters. I truly and honestly believe this.

So you don't think it's in response to the min/maxer mentality? I'm not against them, but they do turn regular people into dicks, idiots, and meter watchers.

[sam, an eggplant]

Dikus are enormous time investments; everybody playing at a high level is a powergamer, because it takes hundreds of hours to get there. Obviously you get some edge cases who RP or whatever, but the game mechanics don't support that sort of thing except in providing a chatroom. Dikus aren't SWG or UO.

Regarding the combatlog, you're right, it's not in the game now. SWTOR used to have one. From a quick google it looks like it was removed a couple weeks ago and nobody knows why. They're going to have to either re-add it or just give up on modern WoW-style raiding entirely. That would be a bold choice, but EA isn't going to let them deviate from the model (WoW) that much.

[Nebu]

Could it be that 3rd party dps/hps meters rely on combatlog info?   Just a guess.  Makes me wonder if they're trying to avoid their use.

[sam, an eggplant]

They do indeed, but again, if they want to promote a competitive raiding environment, they must re-enable combatlogs.

[caladein]

Could it be that 3rd party dps/hps meters rely on combatlog info?   Just a guess.  Makes me wonder if they're trying to avoid their use.

If you want to disable tools like parsers, you don't need to kill the combat log, just kill dumping it to a file.  Or only show your part of it and no one else's, like LotRO does.

Still, I think hiding information from players "for their own good" is idiotic.  Players being able to make intelligent analysis of a game's systems makes for a better game.

[eldaec]

don't show buffs/debuffs

Wait, what? Seriously you can't tell what buffs and debuffs are on your group?

[eldaec]

Again, there's a big difference between allowing addons and just being able to move the stupid mini map to a different spot.  The former I don't care about one way or the other.  Not having the latter is clownshoes.

I remember when mmogs didn't have maps, mini or otherwise. We had to craft our own maps on paper animal skin, and we damn well liked it.

[amiable]

They do indeed, but again, if they want to promote a competitive raiding environment, they must re-enable combatlogs.

It's entirely possible that they do not want to do this.

[sam, an eggplant]

You can see buffs/debuffs in a group (although it also shows long-duration ones), but not in a raid.

Hiding information from users is very oldschool-- everquest1 in fact. I was actually the guy that proved EQ1 stats did nothing, back in like 1999 or so on the shaman boards. Remember when each EQ1 class had its own site?

It's entirely possible that they do not want to do this.

They don't want to promote a competitive raiding environment? Bzzzzzt, wrong. EA wants SWTOR to do everything WoW does, just better. They're already talking about endgame raids, the eternity vault or whatever.

[eldaec]

Unfortunately EA have been completely up front in stating that they feel the need to pander to raiders.

[Paelos]

They do indeed, but again, if they want to promote a competitive raiding environment, they must re-enable combatlogs.

It's entirely possible that they do not want to do this.

From a business design perspective, I'd say they are probably smart to avoid that completely. There is a game that will always beat you out there right now.

[koro]

You can see buffs/debuffs in a group (although it also shows long-duration ones), but not in a raid.

The buff/debuff icons also happen to be about 10x10 pixels and the darkening clock-tick effect that shows how long they have remaining tends to make them indistinguishable.

Any raid or flashpoint encounters that require rapid debuff cleansing will be a world of hurt with how hard it is to rapidly target someone and fire off an ability.

[Evildrider]

I feel allowing mods is a good idea, since it allows you to leverage the expertise of millions of players. But if you take a hard-line stance against mods, you need to present a kick-ass default UI.

This should keep the thread going for another few pages.  

I hate mods.  I prefer that players adapt to the UI.  MMO's have gotten too easy with mods and macros.  As someone that enjoys pvp, I like to know that it was me that beat the opponent, not my UI tweaks and macros.  The more level the playing field, the easier it is to separate ability levels.

Same here.

Ditto.

[Morfiend]

I'm all for mods as long as the developer is on top of them. Ala Blizzard getting rid of game breaking ones. I love my mods, but most of the ones I use for just for layout and customization. Stuff like improved nameplates, and movable UI elements.

[sam, an eggplant]

From a business design perspective, I'd say they are probably smart to avoid that completely. There is a game that will always beat you out there right now.

So from a business perspective, you think they would be wise to avoid fostering a competitive raid environment? Can you name a successful diku MMO that doesn't include endgame raids? What do you propose as the PvE endgame to take the place of raiding?

I would love to play a diku MMO with a truly different endgame. I think it's very possible, and I think someone will do it, eventually. But is EA going to stick their necks out on SWTOR? Hell no.

[kildorn]

I don't think anyone objects to the level playing field argument, they just object to the "shitty UI just means you need to learn to love it" aspect.

If the UI is badass, I don't care if I can't mod it much. If the UI is complete shit, I'd prefer it to either be made better, or made modable. See the Skyrim thread for "dear god people learn to make a fucking UI"

[Viin]

I just want a goddamn UI scale option with the ability to move UI elements around. The UI was very obviously designed for a widescreen monitor with lots of screen real estate, so those of us still stuck in the land of 4:3 have a UI that takes up way too much room.

We don't want your kind around these parts, move along stranger.

[sam, an eggplant]

Right. They either need to commit the resources to producing a truly mature and feature-rich default UI or allow users to build addons. Ideally both, like Rift.

[kildorn]

I'm all for mods as long as the developer is on top of them. Ala Blizzard getting rid of game breaking ones. I love my mods, but most of the ones I use for just for layout and customization. Stuff like improved nameplates, and movable UI elements.

Moreover, Blizzard has been taking the core/required mods and making them part of the base UI for a while now. They want a level playing field as much as anyone else, it makes development easier. They're just not trying to keep the UI shitty. They accept that some changes are improvements, and copy them into the base UI.

[Lakov_Sanite]

If Skyrim has taught me anything it's that  game needs to be REALLY fucking good to overcome a shit UI and even then it's still a huge black mark on something otherwise fun.