SWTOR

[Rasix]

0/10

[Shatter]

Too many sad Star Wars fanboys falling all over themselves to see who can white knight the hardest.

Someone makes the point that Trooper and BH are functionally equivalent and it spawns pages of "HOW DARE YOU!?!?!" The official forums look downright reasonable by comparison. People accept and acknowledge that the classes are mirrors and just move on.

I'm not sure why a technical point about the design of the game is somehow contentious. Sure, you can claim that looking different and having a different story makes two functionally equivalent classes distinct, but that doesn't make the two classes functionally distinct or change the fact that 4 functionally distinct classes is a low number.

Again that doesn't mean that the game is bad. But the SWTOR fans here absolutely refuse to accept any criticism or even "criticism" in the form of completely factual statements. Apparently anything other than "THIS GAME IS THE BEST EVER OMG!!!!!" is not allowed.

But you know - Star Wars fans.  

You know you get a lightsaber right?

[Surlyboi]

Too many sad Star Wars fanboys falling all over themselves to see who can white knight the hardest.

Someone makes the point that Trooper and BH are functionally equivalent and it spawns pages of "HOW DARE YOU!?!?!" The official forums look downright reasonable by comparison. People accept and acknowledge that the classes are mirrors and just move on.

I'm not sure why a technical point about the design of the game is somehow contentious. Sure, you can claim that looking different and having a different story makes two functionally equivalent classes distinct, but that doesn't make the two classes functionally distinct or change the fact that 4 functionally distinct classes is a low number.

Again that doesn't mean that the game is bad. But the SWTOR fans here absolutely refuse to accept any criticism or even "criticism" in the form of completely factual statements. Apparently anything other than "THIS GAME IS THE BEST EVER OMG!!!!!" is not allowed.

But you know - Star Wars fans.  

I'm assuming that was pointed at me mostly, and so allow me to retort:

I'm fine with criticism. When it's valid. Claims of, "OMG! They're mechanically the same, therefore I don't want to play the same game twice!" are bullshit unless you're playing the classes in a vacuum devoid of storylines or any other trappings of any other sort of flavoring.

Shorter me: If you're gonna bitch about the game, bitch about something legit, here's two; the small variety of races to choose from, or the linearity of space combat. Go fucking nuts.

[01101010]

I'm assuming that was pointed at me mostly, and so allow me to retort:

I'm fine with criticism. When it's valid. Claims of, "OMG! They're mechanically the same, therefore I don't want to play the same game twice!" are bullshit unless you're playing the classes in a vacuum devoid of storylines or any other trappings of any other sort of flavoring.

Shorter me: If you're gonna bitch about the game, bitch about something legit, here's two; the small variety of races to choose from, or the linearity of space combat. Go fucking nuts.

I think everyone knows my feelings on NOT having a certain race to play and would rather not bitch anymore about it. And what is this space combat you speak of? I must read more into that now... hope they included photon torpedos and pulsar cannons!

[Surlyboi]

I think everyone knows my feelings on NOT having a certain race to play and would rather not bitch anymore about it.

They probably do, but that beef was and still is a hell of a lot more significant than, "I'm not gonna play a trooper because it's a re-skinned bounty hunter," even though the storylines and other trappings are completely different.

[Murgos]

Too many sad Star Wars fanboys falling all over themselves to see who can white knight the hardest.

...

Again that doesn't mean that the game is bad. But the SWTOR fans here absolutely refuse to accept any criticism or even "criticism" in the form of completely factual statements. Apparently anything other than "THIS GAME IS THE BEST EVER OMG!!!!!" is not allowed.

But you know - Star Wars fans.  

I was serious.  What part of a game sequel where it's the same game mechanically but with a different wrapper & story is it that makes you think that SWTORs sith/republic split isn't actually a meaningfully different experience?  You are so focused on this mechanical detail that you are missing the forest for the trees.  By your logic no one should have played Mass Effect 2 because it's the same game as Mass Effect with the same classes, just some different skins and some different dialogue.

Also, if you aren't just trolling explain the 8, no wait it's actually 7, classes thing.  Cause, i don't get it.

People are giving you legitimate arguments but you're so filled with angst that we don't agree with you that you've turned into internet rage nerd.  But, you know?  Internets 

[Margalis]

I'm fine with criticism. When it's valid. Claims of, "OMG! They're mechanically the same, therefore I don't want to play the same game twice!" are bullshit unless you're playing the classes in a vacuum devoid of storylines or any other trappings of any other sort of flavoring.

That they are mechanically the same is a fact and if that dissuades someone from wanting to play both of them despite story differences that is entirely subjective and up to that person.

It's really not possible for what someone genuinely finds fun or not fun to be wrong, invalid or bullshit. Personally I don't give a shit about number of playable races. I'm not going to say complaints about it are invalid though just because I don't care - obviously some people do.

You seem completely trapped in your own perspective. To me number of distinct classes is very important because I tend to be choosy about that sort of thing. Number of distinct races is almost entirely irrelevant and honestly I have no idea which races are playable beyond human. But that's my perspective. I'm not going to demand that everyone agree and that those who don't are spouting BS.

What part of a game sequel where it's the same game mechanically but with a different wrapper & story is it that makes you think that SWTORs sith/republic split isn't actually a meaningfully different experience?

We aren't talking about sequels but personally I prefer sequels with some mechanical variation from the original. Don't people tend to bitch when too many sequels are the same game with a different coat of paint? But really comparing game sequels to MMO classes is apples and oranges and obfuscates rather than enlightens.

Whether or not story and visual differences are "meaningful" or meaningful enough for someone to play both sides is entirely subjective. To me it depends on how good the story ends up being, but all things equal I'd much rather replay as a mechanically different class so I can get both different mechanics and a different story.

Also, if you aren't just trolling explain the 8, no wait it's actually 7, classes thing.  Cause, i don't get it.

I wasn't aware that all 4 classes on each side were mirrored, from the discussion I thought it was just BH/Trooper.

How is there even an argument here? There are 4 mechanically distinct classes - that's a low number. Whether or not that's too low or just right or whether or not story differences make up for that is purely opinion but you guys seem to think that opinions that differ from your own just aren't acceptable.

Different people enjoy different things. Controversy!

Personally I'm not concerned with replaying the same class because starting over from scratch is not something I do in MMOs. However I am pretty picky about the kinds of classes I like to play and 4 is getting into "I might not enjoy any of these" territory.

[Ingmar]

Too many sad Star Wars fanboys falling all over themselves to see who can white knight the hardest.

Someone makes the point that Trooper and BH are functionally equivalent and it spawns pages of "HOW DARE YOU!?!?!" The official forums look downright reasonable by comparison. People accept and acknowledge that the classes are mirrors and just move on.

I'm not sure why a technical point about the design of the game is somehow contentious. Sure, you can claim that looking different and having a different story makes two functionally equivalent classes distinct, but that doesn't make the two classes functionally distinct or change the fact that 4 functionally distinct classes is a low number.

Again that doesn't mean that the game is bad. But the SWTOR fans here absolutely refuse to accept any criticism or even "criticism" in the form of completely factual statements. Apparently anything other than "THIS GAME IS THE BEST EVER OMG!!!!!" is not allowed.

But you know - Star Wars fans.  

I think the thread you're imagining you're reading may be more interesting than the one we have.

[Tyrnan]

How is there even an argument here? There are 4 mechanically distinct classes - that's a low number. Whether or not that's too low or just right or whether or not story differences make up for that is purely opinion but you guys seem to think that opinions that differ from your own just aren't acceptable.

Depending on BW's stance on allowing AC switching via respecs or whatever, it may end up feeling more like 8 mechanically distinct classes since the ACs do seem to play differently from each other. Looking at the information available so far, playing as a Sage/Sorcerer should be quite different that playing as a Shadow/Assassin for example.

I'm beginning to think it would have been much better if BW hadn't gone with the class/advanced class route and just made the ACs into 8 base classes that we could choose at character creation.

[Sky]

It's really not possible for what someone genuinely finds fun or not fun to be wrong, invalid or bullshit.

It's not whether you find "4 classes" fun or not people are calling bullshit on. It's the information you're basing it on, which is either third-hand bullshit or covered by NDA.

But let's entertain your viewpoint a bit longer. Link to NDA-cleared information from someone playing the current build on both sides of the "same class" to 50 that shows in detail exactly how the classes (all 4 ACs of the Trooper/BH, for instance) are mechanically the same.

I'm beginning to think it would have been much better if BW hadn't gone with the class/advanced class route and just made the ACs into 8 base classes that we could choose at character creation.

From an overhead/story perspective, 4 classes per faction makes sense. It's the best compromise of story and class flexibility, from a pre-Rift design standpoint.

[eldaec]

Well the only other current space themed mmo is eve.

Eve only has one class : Eve guy.

So hey, that is a thing.

[Evildrider]

I'm beginning to think it would have been much better if BW hadn't gone with the class/advanced class route and just made the ACs into 8 base classes that we could choose at character creation.

I think the main reason this didn't happen is it would have added another 2-3 years and another 50 mil or so to the games development.

[eldaec]

What? I don't even...

[Evildrider]

It's really not possible for what someone genuinely finds fun or not fun to be wrong, invalid or bullshit.

It's not whether you find "4 classes" fun or not people are calling bullshit on. It's the information you're basing it on, which is either third-hand bullshit or covered by NDA.

But let's entertain your viewpoint a bit longer. Link to NDA-cleared information from someone playing the current build on both sides of the "same class" to 50 that shows in detail exactly how the classes (all 4 ACs of the Trooper/BH, for instance) are mechanically the same.

You don't need an NDA lift to know that Smuggler's get a nut kick and Imperial Agent's don't.  They may have an ability that has the same effect, but it's not a complete copy.  This also goes for things like the Bounty Hunter's Rocket Punch or the ability where they fly up into the air and unleash a bunch of missles, the Trooper can't do that but they have some other ability that does the same damage.

[Evildrider]

What? I don't even...

If they made all AC's separate, instead of putting two AC's together under one base they would have had to work in 8 more stories.

[eldaec]

Who says they would have had to add 8 more stories?

Or that 8 more stories costs 50 million for that matter?

[Evildrider]

Who says they would have had to add 8 more stories?

Or that 8 more stories costs 50 million for that matter?

If they didn't add 8 more stories than there is no reason to separate them from the way they are now. 

I don't know if it would cost 50 mil, I was just making a sarcastic remark on how much money has been sunk into the game.  Although if they did do 8 more stories that's basically doubling their VO.

[Sky]

Doubling the VO, doubling the class story arcs for writers, doubling the load of QA on story arcs.

[eldaec]

How is it doubling the VO budget when a large majority of quests are not class specific?

[Evildrider]

From James Ohlen on Twitter:  We’ve announced all of the races. Twi’lek, Zabrak, Chiss, Mirialan, Miraluka, Sith, Rattataki, Human and Cyborg.

So after everyone knowing for months, Cyborg is officially announced as a race.

[Sky]

How is it doubling the VO budget when a large majority of quests are not class specific?

For the stories. Possibly hiring on double the player voice actors, or at least doubling the story work for the existing actors. Either way, lots more time and money; or compromise as they've done. And really, it works fine. It's not a huge deal if they leave it as is, it wouldn't bug me if they changed it. Infinitesimal issue imo.

[Evildrider]

How is it doubling the VO budget when a large majority of quests are not class specific?

For the stories. Possibly hiring on double the player voice actors, or at least doubling the story work for the existing actors. Either way, lots more time and money; or compromise as they've done. And really, it works fine. It's not a huge deal if they leave it as is, it wouldn't bug me if they changed it. Infinitesimal issue imo.

You need at least 7 voice actors just for each class: male, female, and 5 companions.  Then you have to retool every quest where they mention your character. 

[eldaec]

Yes it would be impossible for classes to share actors. As you know, it is unheard of for VO actors to perform multiple roles. Or they could share companions for that matter.

Bioware could have done whatever they damn well liked with the VO.

I don't have any problem with the current approach mind you.

[Margalis]

I'm beginning to think it would have been much better if BW hadn't gone with the class/advanced class route and just made the ACs into 8 base classes that we could choose at character creation.

Didn't EQ2 start with a 3-tiered system of classes / more advanced classes and eventually switch towards having you just pick at the start?

There were a number of problems with the original approach. One was that it was just opaque unless you read a lot of out-of-game stuff. A second was that the starter class and the advanced class were often pretty different and as you moved up the tree you were suffering through a class you didn't particularly like to get to one you did. A third was that it was hard to tell whether or not you would enjoy your chosen path until you were far along - this is true to some extent in all games where your endgame role can be pretty different from the journey but it was especially pronounced.

If the advanced class is significantly different from the base you have a lot of issues.

Reading the SWTOR stuff on advanced classes it's not really clear how distinct they are. They sound more like two variations on theme than really distinct classes but it's pretty hard to tell with the wording and naming and such. I do think it's interesting that EQ2 basically started with the same approach and then dropped it.

If they didn't add 8 more stories than there is no reason to separate them from the way they are now. 

I disagree and I think most people agree that the EQ2 evolution away from advanced classes was good for a variety of non-story reasons.

[Ingmar]

They seem pretty distinct. Take consular for example - one side has tank/stealther/melee dps options, the other side is ranged dps or healing. Those aren't really going to play the same.

[Mosesandstick]

The consular's advanced classes are fairly distinct, I'm not sure the others are to the same extent.

[eldaec]

The EQ system wasn't that difficult.

After starting with 'fighter' I don't think anyone was shocked that they could then select Monk but not Illusionist or whatever.

But it did make the first ten levels bland and uninteresting, and severely limited the number of abilities the game could hand out in those levels.

[01101010]

From James Ohlen on Twitter:  We’ve announced all of the races. Twi’lek, Zabrak, Chiss, Mirialan, Miraluka, Sith, Rattataki, Human and Cyborg.

So after everyone knowing for months, Cyborg is officially announced as a race.

Well that is that then. I will have a sorta-droid... now onto the strung out part of the master plan.

Well the only other current space themed mmo is eve.

Eve only has one class : Eve guy.

So hey, that is a thing.

And STO, while not fantastic rainbow sauce awesome, would like to see you in room 3.

[eldaec]

The SWTOR advanced classes mostly just seem to decide if you want access to a tank or healer tree.

They've intentionally avoided the variety of roles you see in something like EQ, so I suspect class matters less than usual anyway.

[eldaec]

And STO, while not fantastic rainbow sauce awesome, would like to see you in room 3.

You should calculate how many 'classes' there are in STO and then tell someone other than me because this is somehow important.

[01101010]

And STO, while not fantastic rainbow sauce awesome, would like to see you in room 3.

You should calculate how many 'classes' there are in STO and then tell someone other than me because this is somehow important.

You said space themed MMO. Just supplying the fodder.

[Fordel]

It's really not possible for what someone genuinely finds fun or not fun to be wrong, invalid or bullshit.

It's not whether you find "4 classes" fun or not people are calling bullshit on. It's the information you're basing it on, which is either third-hand bullshit or covered by NDA.

But let's entertain your viewpoint a bit longer. Link to NDA-cleared information from someone playing the current build on both sides of the "same class" to 50 that shows in detail exactly how the classes (all 4 ACs of the Trooper/BH, for instance) are mechanically the same.

You don't need an NDA lift to know that Smuggler's get a nut kick and Imperial Agent's don't.  They may have an ability that has the same effect, but it's not a complete copy.  This also goes for things like the Bounty Hunter's Rocket Punch or the ability where they fly up into the air and unleash a bunch of missles, the Trooper can't do that but they have some other ability that does the same damage.

StockStrike is the Troopers equivalent to Rocket Punch. They have the same range, damage, resource costs and talents that change their behavior. You also use them in the same way. Both abilities have been shown in official class videos and stuff so we should be okay on NDA.

Visually they are very different, mechanically they are the same spell.


All the classes are mirrored like this, from abilities to talent trees.

[Samprimary]

I'm going to be That Guy and say this is a good thing.

[Threash]

How do you get 7? It is either 8 or 4, depending on your feelings about cosmetically-different-but-equivalent-analogues, or ACs-as-classes vs. ACs-as-specs.

It's called trolling.  When you can't accept, 'Looks different and has a different story' as enough of a difference to be different (which defines any sequel game ever made) and you arbitrarily remove one class with no explanation you aren't contributing you are fishing for reactions.

I'll play too and go the other way.  Since each AC has two unique trees you can fully spec into and 1 shared tree also with a full set of skills I say that there is 8 * 2 + 4 = 20 classes.

What do different looks and different quests have to do with being a different class?  Abilities are what determine class, if they have the same abilities they are not a different class.

[Merusk]

I'm going to be That Guy and say this is a good thing.

My god, yes.  After the clusterfuck of DAOC's "This class is uber, but this mirror is gimped because we wanted to mix things up" how anyone can argue differently is beyond me.

It avoids the "Both sides have the same classes so must look the same" thing while mirroring the important mechanical bits.

Margalis had a hard-on for FF11 for years and a raging hatred of WOW since beta, so what he wants is vastly different from the folks targeting this game.  He's as easy to ignore as folks going in to Eve threads and trolling "LOLZ SPREADSHETZ IN SPACE!"  While factually concrete it ignores that - hey - some people want that.