Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]

[Ironwood]

 

[Paelos]

Heh that's a great pic.

[HaemishM]

That pic is total win.

[Sjofn]

Jaime isn't a good person, but he has a code, and above all else, in a super fucked up way, part of that code is driven by the fact he loves his sister and would do anything, including murder children, to protect her from harm. Raping her is a violation of that code, and thus IS out of character, no matter how many kids he tries to off. And that it wasn't intended to be seen that way makes it even more fucked up.

I'd have to go back and reread the books, but I don't recall there being enough shown of their relationship aside from the lust that would suggest that he does have a code. Does he attempt to murder children because he loves her and wants to protect her from harm, or does he do it because he loves fucking her and wants to continue to be able to do it? It's such a dysfunctional relationship it's hard to tell what's in character or out of it, especially at a time when that relationship is falling apart. Their relationship seems so built on sex, that when he finally makes it home after everything he's been through and she doesn't want much to do with him and tells him as much, I'm don't really think you can say this for sure is out of character for him.

In the books, in his chapters, he goes on and on about how much he loves Cersei, how he's never been with anyone BUT Cersei, he's always been true to her "in his own way," etc. It doesn't make it less creepy (in fact ... pretty much the opposite), but he is way, way, way more into Cersei than Cersei is into him, and it's not for sex.

[Threash]

Cersei is not into him at all.  Cersei is into Cersei with a dick.  In the book they are supposed to be twins and a lot closer in appearance.

[Sjofn]

Which has the insane side effect of you being more grossed out by Cersei for the incest than Jaime because hey, at least he loves her. Or maybe that's just me. 

[jgsugden]

A counterpoint: Brienne is pretty much everything Cersei is not.  And Jaime is cleary drawn there.  And yet, he continues to talk about Cersei and take actions (both in the book and show) that cling to his past relationship, despite it not being satisfying to him.  That says something to me.

[HaemishM]

Brienne is everything he aspires to be as a knight. A great swordsman, utterly honorable and dutiful, completely loyal and also moral. Cersei is more like the Kingslayer part of him that he secretly loathes but can't resist.

[Chimpy]

Wasn't Cersei already boffing Lancel by this stage of the books? I am bit fuzzy on when she moved her incest to her young cousin but they don't seem to even have that part in the show at all.

[jgsugden]

Wasn't Cersei already boffing Lancel by this stage of the books?...

Yes.  Certainly.  And it was in the show.  Tyrion threatens Lancel over it.

[Setanta]

I found an interesting interview with Martin - he brings up Jamie and Cersei:
http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423?page=3

It's a shockingly brutal story that you tell. The first major jolt comes when the knight Jaime Lannister pushes a child, Bran Stark, through a window because the child witnessed Jaime and Jaime's sister, Cersei – the wife of Westeros' King Robert – having sex. That moment grabs you by the throat.

I've had a million people tell me that was the moment that hooked them, where they said, "Well, this is just not the same story I read a million times before." Bran is the first viewpoint character. In the back of their heads, people are thinking Bran is the hero of the story. He's young King Arthur. We're going to follow this young boy – and then, boom: You don't expect something like that to happen to him. So that was successful [laughs].

Both Jaime and Cersei are clearly despicable in those moments. Later, though, we see a more humane side of Jaime when he rescues a woman, who had been an enemy, from rape. All of a sudden we don't know what to feel about Jaime.
One of the things I wanted to explore with Jaime, and with so many of the characters, is the whole issue of redemption. When can we be redeemed? Is redemption even possible? I don't have an answer. But when do we forgive people? You see it all around in our society, in constant debates. Should we forgive Michael Vick? I have friends who are dog-lovers who will never forgive Michael Vick. Michael Vick has served years in prison; he's apologized. Has he apologized sufficiently? Woody Allen: Is Woody Allen someone that we should laud, or someone that we should despise? Or Roman Polanski, Paula Deen. Our society is full of people who have fallen in one way or another, and what do we do with these people? How many good acts make up for a bad act? If you're a Nazi war criminal and then spend the next 40 years doing good deeds and feeding the hungry, does that make up for being a concentration-camp guard? I don't know the answer, but these are questions worth thinking about. I want there to be a possibility of redemption for us, because we all do terrible things. We should be able to be forgiven. Because if there is no possibility of redemption, what's the answer then?

More stuff in that sort of vein - it's a decent read

[eldaec]

Brienne is everything he aspires to be as a knight. A great swordsman, utterly honorable and dutiful, completely loyal and also moral. Cersei is more like the Kingslayer part of him that he secretly loathes but can't resist.

The key thing I think he admires is her ability to retain faith in the idea that you can be moral.

Interesting you say he loathes the Kingslayer part of him, but that is the one choice that Brienne would (probably) also have made. I think what he loathes is not being the Kingslayer, but how he is judged for the only action he ever took that he is proud of. His weakness is that, being utterly spoiled up to that point, he stopped even trying to see the world in moral terms following his first setback.

[Paelos]

I agree, I think Jaime hates how people have used Kingslayer against him as a slur. Rather than him actually celebrated for ending the reign of an lunatic. Because it wasn't that people liked the king, it was that he was killed the wrong way. Like that matters.

Frankly, that's part of why I like Jaime. He's a fool in his own way, but we're all blinded by our own foolishness.

[Threash]

Not just that, but he also sees the other side.  How the other kingsguard he served with and who honorably served the mad king to the very end are glorified and treated as heroes of legend.  People tell their kids stories about the sword of the morning and the white bull and the others, but when he tried to stop the mad king from raping and hurting his wife they were the ones who told him "nope, not your job buddy".  It's not surprising at all his view of honor and morality is completely fucked up.

[Ironwood]

Well, I guess I learned who Michael Vick is.  Not that I care.

And yes, if I was Jamie (not the other stuff, the Kingsguard stuff) I'd be well fucked off an jaded too.

[Cyrrex]

He clearly receives a lot of undeserved shit for being a kingslayer, but on the other hand it fits with one of the overall themes in this series:  you break an oath, you will pay for it.  As far as penalties go, he has so far gotten off easier than just about everyone else.

[eldaec]

By 'easier' you mean 'not dead yet'? His son is dead and he lost a hand, he's been stripped of his skills and martial resources that defined him and people are basically laughing at him, his lover hates him, his brother might have killed his son, and his father attempts to force him into a political role he doesn't want.

Jamie is Titus Andronicus.

[Threash]

The first oath every knight swears is "protect the innocent", some of his oaths were completely contradictory and impossible to follow.

[jgsugden]

The first oath every knight swears is "protect the innocent", some of his oaths were completely contradictory and impossible to follow.

Not all oaths are created equal.  Oaths to the guy funding your paychecks historically trumps other oaths.

[Ironwood]

Thankfully, this is not the case.

[jgsugden]

Thankfully, this is not the case.

For Jaime?  No.  For pretty much everyone else in the KG of the Mad King?

[schild]

I don't know if I posted my opinion of this season yet, but the show is basically going to shit. Too many uninteresting characters. Too many storylines that don't matter (see: everything involving khaleesi (spelling? who cares)). It's basically Heroes post season-1 at this point. I know a lot of people are invested in the show and will disagree because they spent so much time reading poorly-edited do-nothing books, but I think I'm going to hold off until the end and bingewatch it while playing Hex or Diablo 3, and from there decide whether to watch season 5.

Also knowing that absolutely nothing happens in Dance with Dragons or whatever that last book was doesn't make it any more promising.

[calapine]

A counterpoint: Brienne is pretty much everything Cersei is not.  And Jaime is cleary drawn there.  And yet, he continues to talk about Cersei and take actions (both in the book and show) that cling to his past relationship, despite it not being satisfying to him.  That says something to me.

Well, Cersei is certainly a 'hatefull woman' but that has been directed towards other people, not Jamie. She has an intruging side, and I am sure she can be quite nice to him. Secondly, Brienne might just be the right one for him, but that doesn't mean he consciously realized that. I don't think pre-losing-hand-Jamie was a very introspective/self-aware person.

Thankfully, this is not the case.

For Jaime?  No.  For pretty much everyone else in the KG of the Mad King?

It was the morally right decision though. (At least from what the TV show tells.)


Apropos morals, what the consensus on Tywin? He held a convincing speech last episode.  

[jgsugden]

...

For Jaime?  No.  For pretty much everyone else in the KG of the Mad King?

It was the morally right decision though. (At least from what the TV show tells.)...

It was good for the world, but I still maintain Jaime did it because it was good for his family and him, not because he cared what was going to happen to the peasants.  At every point of the stories, I think Jaime would be happy to sit down and watch a bear tear a child apart if it was the community entertainment for the night and the child was not someone he knew.

[Ironwood]

Apropos morals, what the consensus on Tywin? He held a convincing speech last episode.  

Insert Fry 'Not Sure If Serious' Pic.

[MrHat]

The show is great just for the gifs it inspires:

[jgsugden]

The show is great just for the gifs it inspires:

Wait, that wasn't the actual scene? 

[Khaldun]

Perhaps relevant.

http://imgur.com/gallery/9iCHB

[calapine]

Apropos morals, what the consensus on Tywin? He held a convincing speech last episode.

Insert Fry 'Not Sure If Serious' Pic.

I am referring to his 'What makes a good ruler?' lecture. (So we are not crosstalking). About that, yep I think he had some valid points.

But I don't mind being the contrarian on this. Everyone here has a guy/girl crush on Tyrion, I'd rather spend the night in Tywins bed instead.  

Perhaps relevant.

http://imgur.com/gallery/9iCHB

I think you missed a small detail:



Unless you think that sounds legit:

CERSEI: Just now, you were forcing yourself on me. I love and trust you, and you were making me feel powerless and violated.

JAIME: Thank you for having the trust in me to verbalize your experience.

CERSEI: You're welcome.

 



Unless...YOU were being sarcastic all along. In which case I profoundly apologize for my jumping to conclusions. And hope my ill-found mocking has not caused you any anguish.

[Cyrrex]

I think Calapine's having a bad thread.  There is no way Khaldun missed the fact that it was obvious parody.

Unless of course now I am the victim of your own form of sarcasm, but your question on whether or not we all think Tywin is a swell guy makes me think this is not the case.

For the record, Tywin is smart and wise and certainly knows his way around a royal court.  But he is also totally ruthless and unquestionably a giant asshole.  Really, just flat out evil.  I do like that they are showing all sides of these people whenever possible, because of course nobody is so black and white good/evil all the time.  He's still a bad, bad man. 

His speech was spot on, and designed to make us temporarily feel warm and fuzzy for him.  He does sometimes appear to be a swell guy, but that is only because he is surrounded by even bigger assholes, some of whom are downright psychotic or otherwise mental.  Do keep in mind that with all the good words he was saying in his little speech with Tommen, he was talking to a boy that he KNOWS is a product of incest, and absolutely NOT the rightful heir to the throne.  And furthermore, the whole speech was basically to say to Tommen that, hey, a good king will listen to his advisors all the time...which means listening to Tywin Lannister. 

[Ironwood]

I am referring to his 'What makes a good ruler?' lecture. (So we are not crosstalking). About that, yep I think he had some valid points.

But I don't mind being the contrarian on this. Everyone here has a guy/girl crush on Tyrion, I'd rather spend the night in Tywins bed instead.  

No, I got what you were talking about :  You realise he had NO point at all except 'You'll listen to me or you'll end up on the slab like that wee cunt over there ?'  I mean, you got that right ?  It wasn't a speech about anything beyond 'I am in charge here prick.'

[Khaldun]

Geez, did I need to use green text? I wouldn't have thought it was required.

[Lantyssa]

Tywin is obsessed with the family legacy.  All else stems from that, including his being a ruthless asshole to anyone who doesn't agree with him.  Which is pretty much everyone, but then being a tyrant is rarely popular.

[Tannhauser]

I am referring to his 'What makes a good ruler?' lecture. (So we are not crosstalking). About that, yep I think he had some valid points.

But I don't mind being the contrarian on this. Everyone here has a guy/girl crush on Tyrion, I'd rather spend the night in Tywins bed instead.  

No, I got what you were talking about :  You realise he had NO point at all except 'You'll listen to me or you'll end up on the slab like that wee cunt over there ?'  I mean, you got that right ?  It wasn't a speech about anything beyond 'I am in charge here prick.'

Yeah he basically said that all the other kings died because they didn't heed their advisers and their wisdom.  When Tywin uses his pimp hand, the slap is only as hard as it needs to be.

[calapine]

No, I got what you were talking about :  You realise he had NO point at all except 'You'll listen to me or you'll end up on the slab like that wee cunt over there ?'  I mean, you got that right ?  It wasn't a speech about anything beyond 'I am in charge here prick.'

Yes, but it was also honest advice. Little boy get's on a throne that killed the last three men that sat on that position. Should he have said "You are 12, just do what you want" or "Listen to your mother. Cersei always makes well reasoned decisions!"

Tommys (spelling?) is a naive kid whose first answer to what makes a good king is "be pious". Tywin teaches him right away "What's the point of being nice when it gets you killed and puts the bad guys in charge?"