Game of Thrones [SPOILERS]

[Velorath]

They really botched that Cersei-Jaime scene.  That makes the further actions with Jaime far less sympathetic and makes Cersei more so.  Ohh well. 

The more I think about it, the more I'm kinda ok with that. Jamie shouldn't really be that sympathetic. Popular villains "redeeming" themselves and becoming anti-heroes can be a bit of an annoying and overused trope sometimes (Venom, Magneto, Sabretooth and a ton of other Marvel characters, Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, etc...) and is rarely done in a convincing manner. GoT has two characters that sort of fit that mold in Jamie and the Hound, one of whom attempted to murder a child and the other who actually did. In the real world I'm pretty sure none of us would root for child killers regardless of how humorously they use the word "cunt". This last episode reminded us with both of them that regardless of what good things they might go on to do, neither of these characters are people you would actually want to be around. They aren't good people, and they aren't just going to transform overnight.

[Ironwood]

Trouble is, the hound was right.

[MediumHigh]

I think there is a difference between child murder and child rapist and murder. I mean Jaime was never a "good guy" in a opinion just honest and implosive. If he wasn't a lannister his natural swordsmanship would have granted him some leverage but he'd probably be dead by now. To say Jaime was never a good guy and hence unlikable is really bullshit considering the book your reading turns a 11 year old girl into a murdering sociopath, who we also root for because at least she does it for honor   or coin   or cause she wanna  . Jaime has many lows, but to say he has "that" low is rather insulting to the character and what's left of the complexity of every character.

Some are straight up fucked up in the head and are merely protected by status and being on the right side of conflicts, The Mountain, Bastard, The Goat, Joffery, etc. Some are bad people in a bad world they help create, a lot of the Lords like Bolton, Tywin, Frey, are in that category. Some are bad people cause bad is either than being a target, Bronn, The Hound, etc. And the list kinda goes on. Everyone on that list has standards of evil that defines how far their willing to go and how much they give a fuck.

[Merusk]

(But we can't do rape scenes in fantasy shows.  lol.)

If anything this sort of proves that thesis.  Even Martin himself is trying REALLY HARD to distance himself from it, because it's gone over worse than a lead balloon at a children's party.
http://grrm.livejournal.com/367116.html?thread=19030284#t19030284

And these are characters that we're supposed to hate and only partially empathize with Jamie as he changes. Folks who had a previous sexual relationship.

[Ironwood]

My Lol should have been bigger.  Clearly.   

I find it fascinating that he's going having to do this.

Why, sure, the murder, wholesale slaughter and incest are AOK, but jeeeez, that's not what THAT scene was intended to convey. 

(Again; Big Fat LOL in here.  Just so we're clear.  Let's not get serious about Sarah Connor.)

[Threash]

The problem isn't rape, they've had rapes before. The problem is showing something that  is clearly rape and acting like it wasn't. The director said it was consensual by the end, the show carried no rape warning. We were supposed to look at that scene and not see a rape, and that IS pretty fucked.

[Ironwood]

Yeah, as I said, if that was the intention, it was botched.

[Speedy Cerviche]

The director said in an interview that it was intended to be seen as consensual by the end of it.  If that was the case he failed miserably as a director because it looks like rape the whole way through.

My wife saw it as consensual by the end, I didn't really, but I guess to be fair his presentation did get through to some people but it seems to have been way too subtle for most.

[Numtini]

There was nothing consensual there that I could see and I was expecting it to be consensual and as the scene played out I was looking for some evidence that they hadn't completely changed the intent of it. It's making me more sympathetic to some of the critiques about the treatment of women and nudity and so on. I can see how the scene might have been filmed and come out that way, but I can't imagine someone didn't review this and not think "Houston, we have a problem" unless they're complete idiots.

There's also an entire aspect of the scene with Jaime offering to throw away everything to be with Cersei that's totally absent. This, to me, is as much a reason for changes in his character as losing his hand. It's where he realizes that despite everything else, she's just not that into him, and he's basically just another pawn.

And yes, in storytelling rape is worse than murder or incest. Well, consensual incest I'm not sure anyone other than British tabloids and Waterstones cares about. Murder in the context of a fantasy novel is pretty minor. People die and they die a lot. Even the attempted murder of Bran is in context of someone acting against an enemy of their house, plus he doesn't actually die and it becomes part of his arc. Rape is different and even more so when it's a very personal rape of someone the character supposedly cares about. It's something you have an impersonal and utterly evil character do. Even for someone who's a villain, you don't have them rape someone if they're a POV character.

[Strazos]

Even for someone who's a villain, you don't have them rape someone if they're a POV character.

What? Why not - I've seen it happen before, in a way that makes sense. Ken Follet's "The Pillars of the Earth," if you're interested.

Not defending the scene - seemed very rape-y to me. Just wanted to respond to this bit.

[Severian]

They really botched that Cersei-Jaime scene.  That makes the further actions with Jaime far less sympathetic and makes Cersei more so.  Ohh well. 

The more I think about it, the more I'm kinda ok with that. Jamie shouldn't really be that sympathetic. Popular villains "redeeming" themselves and becoming anti-heroes can be a bit of an annoying and overused trope sometimes (Venom, Magneto, Sabretooth and a ton of other Marvel characters, Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer, etc...) and is rarely done in a convincing manner...

It's interesting that you mentioned Spike, because he was also part of a very controversial rape scene that was intended to course-correct how he was being perceived by Buffy's audience. It did not go over well.

Yeah, I didn't care for this scene, either, it didn't feel right. I feel they botched the few scenes they have had to show the pivotal turn in Cercei and Jaime's relationship, so critical to both of them. Granted, POV writing for page after page is a lot simpler than depicting it on screen, but Jaime's feelings and motivations aren't that complex.

[Speedy Cerviche]

I think the previous scene where he shows up the first time and she dumps him portrayed a significant change. This one sent people mixed messages, I guess kind of showing how messed up he is, but there's plenty of time to recover.

[Phildo]

Dude was a poorly treated prisoner of war who then sneaked across hostile lands to get back to the woman he loves, losing his hand in the process, only to be thoroughly rebuked by her upon his return.  Then the guy watches his son die an agonizing death at his wedding, in front of hundreds of onlookers.  If that doesn't make a man a little crazy, what does?

[Severian]

I think the previous scene where he shows up the first time and she dumps him portrayed a significant change. This one sent people mixed messages, I guess kind of showing how messed up he is, but there's plenty of time to recover.

True enough.

I am also disappointed that he's clean-shaven again (in the books he retained the beard, to Cersei's irritation) and he's not wearing the white. But perhaps I'm getting slightly ahead of where the show is at, and his gold armor does look pretty damn good.

P.S. I also appreciated how Arya regularly now just slides the steel in. Sociopath style points.

[eldaec]

A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward.

Through all this, worth remembering that GRRM (presumably) doesn't intend to fully redeem Jamie and the Hound or anyone else. He is, fairly consistently, allowing characters to do good and bad as it makes sense for the character, without it locking them into a redemption or damnation story.

(with the exception of 3 specific plot armored individuals)

[Ingmar]

This seems to completely derail Jaime's arc; it's the kind of thing that is just going to kill any sympathy for the character other than from a pretty unsavory segment of fans, and it really detracts from what Martin was doing in terms of finding people on all sides to have some sympathy for. I think it's an abject failure on the part of the directors, and maybe it's just me, but I think I read an acknowledgement of that between the lines of GRRM's post.

[calapine]

Funny how quickly the mood here sours after so much praise for the show. Not that I disagree with the assessment that it wasn't the most interesting episode.

About little-finger. I wasn't aware that it's an Irish accent, but it's really obvious he is talking in a "I am a villain" drawl.

[eldaec]

People criticising one scene doesn't mean they now hate the show.

[calapine]

People criticising one scene doesn't mean they now hate the show.

No, of course not. (And it's not what I meant either.)

I only saw the episode today, so I read all replies in a row and the tone was markedly different from usual in here.  

[HaemishM]

I'm actually kind of surprised that people have clutched the pearls SO HARD about that rape scene. Jamie Lannister is a vile, incestuous murderer who tried to kill a child, for fuck's sake. His sister gladly killed her husband and tried to have her own brother killed, fathered a bastard child of incest who she gladly put on the throne despite him being a murderous little shit. Rape is suddenly supposed to make Jamie Lannister irredeemable? These are complex characters thankfully, much more so than we saw in the beginning of the books. Had Jamie done the rape then, I don't think anyone would have batted an eyelash. But now because he's suddenly revealed to have a reason to slay the king he was sworn to protect and he's gone a bit squidgy for Brienne, the rape makes everyone lose their shit.

Was the scene consensual? No. It never occurred to me that the director might be trying to make it consensual, which I guess shows how badly he fucked it up. But if you keep looking to this show for the good in characters, I think you're going to be sorely disappointed. I think the scene showed that neither character, for whatever good they might do, is in any way redeemable.

[tazelbain]

Either they royally fucked up the scene; or they are making TV Jaimie less grey than Book Jaimie.  Both of options suck, so ya I can understand why people are bit miffed.

[Ironwood]

I'm actually kind of surprised that people have clutched the pearls SO HARD about that rape scene. Jamie Lannister is a vile, incestuous murderer who tried to kill a child, for fuck's sake. His sister gladly killed her husband and tried to have her own brother killed, fathered a bastard child of incest who she gladly put on the throne despite him being a murderous little shit. Rape is suddenly supposed to make Jamie Lannister irredeemable? These are complex characters thankfully, much more so than we saw in the beginning of the books. Had Jamie done the rape then, I don't think anyone would have batted an eyelash. But now because he's suddenly revealed to have a reason to slay the king he was sworn to protect and he's gone a bit squidgy for Brienne, the rape makes everyone lose their shit.

Was the scene consensual? No. It never occurred to me that the director might be trying to make it consensual, which I guess shows how badly he fucked it up. But if you keep looking to this show for the good in characters, I think you're going to be sorely disappointed. I think the scene showed that neither character, for whatever good they might do, is in any way redeemable.

I think it was because the whole journey with Brienne actually did a damn good job of humanising him, especially when you found out WHY he was The Kingslayer.

So there's that.

[jgsugden]

They screwed up the scene.  It was intended to do what the book did, but without her being so exuberant about it.  It ended up with her being so subtle about it that most people did not perceive her shift in attitude.  There are dozens of news stories out there covering what the director thought he shot as opposed to what we saw.  Frankly, I can't imagine the scene from the book going to screen without it looking ridiculous.

Either way: The guy is not redeemed.  He was not redeemed in the books.  He is never a good guy.  Everything he does, he does for selfish reasons - it just so happens that those selfish reasons are protecting 'his' people.  If it had not been Brienee in that pit, he'd have happily watched the bear kill the person.  Not good.

[Severian]

About little-finger. I wasn't aware that it's an Irish accent, but it's really obvious he is talking in a "I am a villain" drawl.

I didn't pick up on the Irish, either, but certainly the mustache-twirling. He may have been coached to approach it that way, going hand-in-hand with the scene which preceded it: the ridiculous horror-cliche sequence of Sansa in the Godswood as Dontos arrives. Game of Thrones has a specific, effective voice when it comes to its horror elements, and that sure wasn't it. But then, nothing horrible was happening in the Godswood, it was a manufactured attempt at suspense, maybe they felt they needed the pacing.

[Velorath]

I'm actually kind of surprised that people have clutched the pearls SO HARD about that rape scene. Jamie Lannister is a vile, incestuous murderer who tried to kill a child, for fuck's sake. His sister gladly killed her husband and tried to have her own brother killed, fathered a bastard child of incest who she gladly put on the throne despite him being a murderous little shit. Rape is suddenly supposed to make Jamie Lannister irredeemable? These are complex characters thankfully, much more so than we saw in the beginning of the books. Had Jamie done the rape then, I don't think anyone would have batted an eyelash. But now because he's suddenly revealed to have a reason to slay the king he was sworn to protect and he's gone a bit squidgy for Brienne, the rape makes everyone lose their shit.

Was the scene consensual? No. It never occurred to me that the director might be trying to make it consensual, which I guess shows how badly he fucked it up. But if you keep looking to this show for the good in characters, I think you're going to be sorely disappointed. I think the scene showed that neither character, for whatever good they might do, is in any way redeemable.

I think it was because the whole journey with Brienne actually did a damn good job of humanising him, especially when you found out WHY he was The Kingslayer.

So there's that.

Again, he is still a guy that pushed a 10 year old out a window to cover up the fact that he was fucking his sister. "But he's been acting nicer lately and he had a really good reason to stab the Mad King in the back" doesn't really change that or suddenly make him way too noble of a guy to do what he did in this scene.

[eldaec]

Either they royally fucked up the scene

This is what happened. The director has explicitly come out and said they were shooting for consensual but weird.

What was talked about was that it was not consensual as it began, but Jaime and Cersei, their entire sexual relationship has been based on and interwoven with risk. And Jaime is very much ready to have sex with her because he hasn’t made love to her since he got back, and she’s sort of cajoled into it, and it is consensual. Ultimately, it was meant to be consensual. [The writers] tried to complicate it a little more with her rejecting his new hand and the state of things.

The thing about it is that Jaime has come home and is trying to convince himself that things are the same: that he and Cersei are a unit, they’re in love, they have sex, everything comes out of that bond. And he’s desperate to reinvigorate that and it has not been working. That’s part of what’s behind him, that lie he’s telling himself, that seasons two and three didn’t happen. So it’s a last act of stupid clinging to what’s been home for him, because it will never be the same. It’s also setting up something that happens in the finale. For Cersei, she is so blindsided and in the middle of the audacious murder of Joffrey at his own wedding, she’s standing there pondering all this with her other son, her sweet son. And her father comes in and basically says, “There is no way you’re going to have control over this kid” and takes him away. So she’s just empty. She’s decimated. What I said is what we just talked about. It’s just fleshing it out.

It’s my cut of the scene. The consensual part of it was that she wraps her legs around him, and she’s holding on to the table, clearly not to escape but to get some grounding in what’s going on. And also, the other thing that I think is clear before they hit the ground is she starts to make out with him. The big things to us that were so important, and that hopefully were not missed, is that before he rips her undergarment, she’s way into kissing him back. She’s kissing him aplenty.

[eldaec]

About little-finger. I wasn't aware that it's an Irish accent, but it's really obvious he is talking in a "I am a villain" drawl.

I didn't pick up on the Irish, either, but certainly the mustache-twirling. He may have been coached to approach it that way, going hand-in-hand with the scene which preceded it: the ridiculous horror-cliche sequence of Sansa in the Godswood as Dontos arrives. Game of Thrones has a specific, effective voice when it comes to its horror elements, and that sure wasn't it. But then, nothing horrible was happening in the Godswood, it was a manufactured attempt at suspense, maybe they felt they needed the pacing.

On Littlefinger, I liked the performance, but can't help thinking it would have had more impact if it had been saved as part of a bigger reveal.

[angry.bob]

People criticising one scene doesn't mean they now hate the show.

I invite you to read the internet at large. It's awash with people forever swearing off Game of Thrones for supporting patriarchy, enabling Rape Culture, and not giving trigger warnings. These people are obviously fucking retards who probably shouldn't have been watching GoT in the first place, but they exist and there apparently a lot of them.

[Sjofn]

Again, he is still a guy that pushed a 10 year old out a window to cover up the fact that he was fucking his sister. "But he's been acting nicer lately and he had a really good reason to stab the Mad King in the back" doesn't really change that or suddenly make him way too noble of a guy to do what he did in this scene.

For me it's less them screwing up his redemption arc - which it does, of course - and more that the change from creepy, fucked up incest between consenting adults next to their son's corpse (which uh ... I think does well enough all on its own to remind people THESE TWO ARE FUCKED UP) to rape is unnecessary, and adds nothing to the characters or their arcs. Jaime isn't a good person, but he has a code, and above all else, in a super fucked up way, part of that code is driven by the fact he loves his sister and would do anything, including murder children, to protect her from harm. Raping her is a violation of that code, and thus IS out of character, no matter how many kids he tries to off. And that it wasn't intended to be seen that way makes it even more fucked up.

I could go on and on about this (the Dany/Drogo change actually pisses me off more), but at the end of the day, the main thing I have to shake my head at is that people adapting the show apparently read the books and went, "Hey, you know what this needs? MORE rape!" There was more than enough already, thank you.

[Severian]

On Jaime: "sympathetic" is a more useful term to evaluate how Jaime comes across rather than "good guy / bad guy". It's something the books accomplished, regardless of actions, for a number of characters. Something about how seeing things from someone else's point of view is supposed to inform how you judge them, IDK, seems crazy.

Still, this was just one scene, there will be more.

[Ingmar]

I'm actually kind of surprised that people have clutched the pearls SO HARD about that rape scene. Jamie Lannister is a vile, incestuous murderer who tried to kill a child, for fuck's sake. His sister gladly killed her husband and tried to have her own brother killed, fathered a bastard child of incest who she gladly put on the throne despite him being a murderous little shit. Rape is suddenly supposed to make Jamie Lannister irredeemable? These are complex characters thankfully, much more so than we saw in the beginning of the books. Had Jamie done the rape then, I don't think anyone would have batted an eyelash. But now because he's suddenly revealed to have a reason to slay the king he was sworn to protect and he's gone a bit squidgy for Brienne, the rape makes everyone lose their shit.

Was the scene consensual? No. It never occurred to me that the director might be trying to make it consensual, which I guess shows how badly he fucked it up. But if you keep looking to this show for the good in characters, I think you're going to be sorely disappointed. I think the scene showed that neither character, for whatever good they might do, is in any way redeemable.

I would have expected you of the people here, as an author, to have a better grasp of his character arc. TV Jaime and Book Jaime are now very different entities. I don't think this is something we'd have seen from Book Jaime, especially towards Cersei, and certainly not at the point he was at in his character growth at this point in the books. It's not about "oh he's a good guy now" it's "he's a better guy than he was" and they just tossed that whole thing out the window.

EDIT: Ummm, I think that may come across ruder than I meant it. Sorry!

What was talked about was that it was not consensual as it began, but Jaime and Cersei, their entire sexual relationship has been based on and interwoven with risk. And Jaime is very much ready to have sex with her because he hasn’t made love to her since he got back, and she’s sort of cajoled into it, and it is consensual. Ultimately, it was meant to be consensual. [The writers] tried to complicate it a little more with her rejecting his new hand and the state of things.

The thing about it is that Jaime has come home and is trying to convince himself that things are the same: that he and Cersei are a unit, they’re in love, they have sex, everything comes out of that bond. And he’s desperate to reinvigorate that and it has not been working. That’s part of what’s behind him, that lie he’s telling himself, that seasons two and three didn’t happen. So it’s a last act of stupid clinging to what’s been home for him, because it will never be the same. It’s also setting up something that happens in the finale. For Cersei, she is so blindsided and in the middle of the audacious murder of Joffrey at his own wedding, she’s standing there pondering all this with her other son, her sweet son. And her father comes in and basically says, “There is no way you’re going to have control over this kid” and takes him away. So she’s just empty. She’s decimated. What I said is what we just talked about. It’s just fleshing it out.

It’s my cut of the scene. The consensual part of it was that she wraps her legs around him, and she’s holding on to the table, clearly not to escape but to get some grounding in what’s going on. And also, the other thing that I think is clear before they hit the ground is she starts to make out with him. The big things to us that were so important, and that hopefully were not missed, is that before he rips her undergarment, she’s way into kissing him back. She’s kissing him aplenty.

Christ on a stick. "Oh sure, it STARTS as kinda rapey but you know, she decides she's into it so it's cool." Unbelievable.

[calapine]

People criticising one scene doesn't mean they now hate the show.

I invite you to read the internet at large. It's awash with people forever swearing off Game of Thrones for supporting patriarchy, enabling Rape Culture, and not giving trigger warnings. These people are obviously fucking retards who probably shouldn't have been watching GoT in the first place, but they exist and there apparently a lot of them.

This (as in, people being stupid) is why I am pretty selective with the forum browsing. Despite being into interneting since 19,  I still don't manage not to not care what people say. Even things like someone saying "DA2 is better than the Witcher 2" upsets me.  I just take everything to personal.  

[Sjofn]

People criticising one scene doesn't mean they now hate the show.

I invite you to read the internet at large. It's awash with people forever swearing off Game of Thrones for supporting patriarchy, enabling Rape Culture, and not giving trigger warnings. These people are obviously fucking retards who probably shouldn't have been watching GoT in the first place, but they exist and there apparently a lot of them.

This (as in, people being stupid) is why I am pretty selective with the forum browsing. Despite being into interneting since 19,  I still don't manage not to care what people say. Even things like someone saying "DA2 is better than the Witcher 2" upsets me.  I just take everything to personal.  

I like DA2 better than the Witcher 2, but I still love you, calapine. <3

[Rendakor]

Christ on a stick. "Oh sure, it STARTS as kinda rapey but you know, she decides she's into it so it's cool." Unbelievable.

It starts "kinda rapey" in the book too.

[Chimpy]

I did not really notice how "much different" it was from the books (or honestly how non-consensual it was in the show) because as soon as I realized "oh yeah, this is where they have sex next to the corpse" I kinda shut my eye-brain connection off  and zoned out because of how the brother-sister sexual relationship thing creeps me the fuck out.