Another One Bites the Dust: SWG Edition!

[IainC]

I keep wondering if at some point in the future, Tech-savvy businessmen who could run real corporations as a great business instead of as a huckster's paradise will take over a game company or two. 

King
SocialPoint
Gameloft
Rovio

Companies run by actual businessmen with better procedures exist, they just don't make games that you want to play. Games for core gamers are almost exclusively made by people who are also core gamers because all the money is in social gaming.

[sam, an eggplant]

This "it's just a videogame lololol" is precisely the attitude that keeps this whole industry the shit it is.

That was very clever, but has nothing to do with the post I was responding to. Unless you think a third-party governmental agency like the SEC should regulate videogame development. You don't think that, right?

Send me your resume immediately.

Oh dear god no. I enjoy playing games, and I don't want to see how the sausage is made.

[Teleku]

He was producing a videogame, not managing a mutual fund for fidelity.

This "it's just a videogame lololol" is precisely the attitude that keeps this whole industry the shit it is.

Well that and the preponderance of idiotic, socially-retarded manchildren in charge of most of it.

This is, of course, why real programmers don't work on vidya games.  Seems to be a self-feeding mechanism.

I keep wondering if at some point in the future, Tech-savvy businessmen who could run real corporations as a great business instead of as a huckster's paradise will take over a game company or two. 

This might change things, as they implement a more structured format and more rigorous protocols. Transforming their part of the industry to create giants like has happened in other creative fields while the "Artists" and "in it for the love, man" types go off to be independent flailing studios like we've seen here and other creative industries.  That or they'll realize that the reason EA and Activision were huckster's paradises is because the talent involved and the clientele just don't care.

Uh, Activision is exactly what happens when real corporate businessmen take over a game company.

[Merusk]

No, read up on Kotick's past. He's as much a businessman as a car salesman is. He creates nothing, innovates nothing, he only knows how to lie and do the econ shuffle. That's a huckster, not a legit businessman.

[Kail]

No, read up on Kotick's past. He's as much a businessman as a car salesman is. He creates nothing, innovates nothing, he only knows how to lie and do the econ shuffle. That's a huckster, not a legit businessman.

I think we're dealing with different definitions of "businessman."  Someone who never creates anything themselves and is reluctant to adopt new innovations describes like 95% of all executives I've ever known.

[Threash]

We are talking about real software development companies making games, not really "businessmen".

[Rendakor]

Someone who never creates anything themselves and is reluctant to adopt new innovations describes like 95% of all executives I've ever known.

This right here.

[Margalis]

I don't understand how this has anything to do with "ethics."

He thought it was a bad business decision. Bad business decisions are not unethical, nor is protecting the profit margin of a business "ethics." He thought it was a bad idea and refused to do it - that's fine, but there's no morality angle there.

[Triforcer]

I don't understand how this has anything to do with "ethics."

He thought it was a bad business decision. Bad business decisions are not unethical, nor is protecting the profit margin of a business "ethics." He thought it was a bad idea and refused to do it - that's fine, but there's no morality angle there.

After thinking about it, the better term is probably "a craftsman taking extreme pride in his craft" or something similar.

[Raph]

Ten years later and SWG still evokes pages of discussion.

Imagine how much more we could debate if Raph had implemented Outcasting!

Speaking of which...

http://www.raphkoster.com/2015/04/15/star-wars-galaxies-tefs/

[DayDream]

I consistently dig your blog, Raph.  Thanks for writing it.

[tmp]

[That was very clever, but has nothing to do with the post I was responding to. Unless you think a third-party governmental agency like the SEC should regulate videogame development. You don't think that, right?

It's possible I misread what you meant, but it seemed like you were objecting to the idea game development company are part of the world of finance (which after all includes corporate finance) purely because they're making videogames. If it's not what you meant, could you explain what you did mean?

As for regulations... I wouldn't be too surprised if there's some calls for that after Chris Robert's venture inevitable crash and burn. People get pissed when they're scammed out of their money, and the number of scams/failures to deliver is only going to grow.

[Goreschach]

As for regulations... I wouldn't be too surprised if there's some calls for that after Chris Robert's venture inevitable crash and burn. People get pissed when they're scammed out of their money, and the number of scams/failures to deliver is only going to grow.

If Chris Roberts' sudden but inevitable betrayal does have any kind of impact, it'll be on the crowdfunding industry, not games.

[WayAbvPar]

Ten years later and SWG still evokes pages of discussion.

Imagine how much more we could debate if Raph had implemented Outcasting!

Speaking of which...

http://www.raphkoster.com/2015/04/15/star-wars-galaxies-tefs/

Thanks for the link...very interesting read. Reminds me of the heady days of early beta SWG and the battles I had in the forums. Back when there was still a chance you were making a game I wanted to play 

[Raph]

Oh, there's more.

These questions seem so short and innocent... but they're brutal. The next one was "what happened wqith Jedi?"

http://www.raphkoster.com/2015/04/16/a-jedi-saga/

[Viin]

Nice write ups, interesting to see all the things you were juggling. Along the lines of those comments on TEF, I too had some of my most memorable MMO moments in pre-CU SWG as an overt Imperial bounty hunter. Being overt gave any Rebels I ran into an option to attack me if they chose - many didn't, but some thought a lone bounty hunter wouldn't be able to survive a 1-on-3. I didn't always win, but even in situations I "lost" it was often fun and memorable. (Then those damn combat medics screwed it up with their poisons thrown through walls!)

[Tale]

Oh, there's more.

These questions seem so short and innocent... but they're brutal. The next one was "what happened wqith Jedi?"

http://www.raphkoster.com/2015/04/16/a-jedi-saga/

That one answers much more than "what happened with Jedi?" - more like "what happened with SWG?"!

Great stuff.

[tmp]

Oh, there's more.

These questions seem so short and innocent... but they're brutal. The next one was "what happened wqith Jedi?"

http://www.raphkoster.com/2015/04/16/a-jedi-saga/

We learned during beta that our deployment hardware was going to be less powerful than we had expected. As a result, we couldn’t compute the really nifty procedural terrain on the servers as far out as we had hoped. As a result, our range for combat fell in half or more. This actually broke everything, because the new range was smaller than the minimum optimum range for rifles and snipers.

thank you for taking your time to write these, Raph. They're genuinely a great read.

[Khaldun]

It's very nice to see these. Some of them confirm things I remember speculating about on the player forums as early as Beta.

[5150]

Oh, there's more.

These questions seem so short and innocent... but they're brutal. The next one was "what happened wqith Jedi?"

http://www.raphkoster.com/2015/04/16/a-jedi-saga/

It's sad but at the risk of opening myself up to F13 abuse I've been waiting years to read that - thank you.

I've come full circle, I came to F13 because of Jeff (I seem to recall) posting about SWG and I get closure on it here too.

Although from KOTOR I'd wager changing the time period wouldn't have helped much.

[sam, an eggplant]

Oh man, bringing up Dundee, now I'm bummed out all over again. I miss him. Just imagine what he could have done over the past 10 years.

[5150]

Oh man, bringing up Dundee, now I'm bummed out all over again. I miss him. Just imagine what he could have done over the past 10 years.

At the risk of speaking ill of the dead I recall that I arrived here because he posted something defending the NGE so forgive my cynicism of how much he could have done in 10 years.......

[Lantyssa]

Closure.

Though I think you've said bits and pieces of that over the years.  I came here because of SWG.

Jedi.  Argh.  I still remember cracking the system.  (Figuring out the proper BE tissue ratios was tough in comparison.)  I'd gotten three professions completed.  I knew Artisan was my fourth... so I started doing others until I got the message that the holo wouldn't tell me my fifth, already knowing it was Artisan.

But I kept doing other professions I had wanted to test out, because while I never dropped Master CH or Scout, I did enjoy trying other things.  I had followed the Holocrons as long as they had been something I was interested in and I got lucky.  (BH which I had a line already, BE which had been next in my explorations anyways, TK which I had lines of off and on, and Artisan.  I think Medic was my fourth/fifth.)  Then I was ready.  I started Artisan, but I was taking my time.  I knew it was my unlock.  They patched when I had something like three boxes left to do... and they changed the requirement to eight professions with that patch.

I didn't unlock and I gave up the quest, knowing in my heart I'd achieved Jedi the way it was intended (in the messed up non-complete emergency system), but only to be denied because I wasn't willing to grind out professions I wasn't interested in.  And that's okay, because I don't miss not being a Jedi other than the anecdote I got 'robbed'.

I do still miss my dalyrakes though.

[sam, an eggplant]

At the risk of speaking ill of the dead I recall that I arrived here because he posted something defending the NGE so forgive my cynicism of how much he could have done in 10 years.......

It's been a long time, so no surprise your memory is a bit skewed, but he actually did not defend the NGE as a whole. He posted one time pre-NGE, talking about one specific aspect of it, the click to shoot combat, and as he was the only SOE employee to poke out his head he was blamed for the whole thing and mercilessly attacked. This Escapist article goes into more detail, and links to the posts in question so you can refresh your memory and make your own decision.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/editorials/op-ed/801-SWG-NGE-Crying-Freeman

[Raguel]

I don't understand how this has anything to do with "ethics."

He thought it was a bad business decision. Bad business decisions are not unethical, nor is protecting the profit margin of a business "ethics." He thought it was a bad idea and refused to do it - that's fine, but there's no morality angle there.

Well I never played SWG but IIRC didn't they come out with a new expansion and then like a month later (or less) release NGE, which invalidated that expansion? I considered that unethical.

[sam, an eggplant]

It certainly was!

To their credit, they refunded everybody that complained about it.

[Raguel]

Oh, there's more.

These questions seem so short and innocent... but they're brutal. The next one was "what happened wqith Jedi?"

http://www.raphkoster.com/2015/04/16/a-jedi-saga/

I think the hardcore Jedi mode is awesome, probably because my vaporware  mmo had the same design. (and by vaporware I mean it only existed in my head and not even in print, much less code)

[sam, an eggplant]

It's a neat idea, but if I'm playing a Star Wars MMO, I want to be a Jedi in that game. I don't want to play an entirely different game. Also this was like 2003, and internet connections were terrible. Many people were still on dial-up! Permadeath is a tough pill to swallow even today.

[shiznitz]

I know it was two pages ago, but most people should make an effort to have enough financial flexibility in their savings to tolerate 6-8 months of unemployment.  Such flexibility and peace of mind will help you make better job/career choices.

[Malakili]

I know it was two pages ago, but most people should make an effort to have enough financial flexibility in their savings to tolerate 6-8 months of unemployment.  Such flexibility and peace of mind will help you make better job/career choices.

Yeah, that's firmly in fantasy land for most people.

It's a neat idea, but if I'm playing a Star Wars MMO, I want to be a Jedi in that game. I don't want to play an entirely different game. Also this was like 2003, and internet connections were terrible. Many people were still on dial-up! Permadeath is a tough pill to swallow even today.

I understand the practical problems of the system, but it is a pretty good representation of what playing a force sensitive character would have been like in that moment of Star Wars lore.  

[sam, an eggplant]

It is, and I agree it was a cool idea. But it's one that would be tough to push through in 2015.

As for the savings bit, I'm single and could live on savings for well over a decade without impacting my quality of life or spending one bit. I still wouldn't quit my job without having another one lined up unless the conditions were outright intolerable. Most people aren't lucky enough to be in that situation-- most people I speak to are essentially living month to month, if they don't have huge credit card and student loan debt to boot. (And no, they aren't all strippers!)

[Lantyssa]

Well I never played SWG but IIRC didn't they come out with a new expansion and then like a month later (or less) release NGE, which invalidated that expansion? I considered that unethical.

Closer to 15 days.

[Riggswolfe]

Ten years later and SWG still evokes pages of discussion.

Imagine how much more we could debate if Raph had implemented Outcasting!

Speaking of which...

http://www.raphkoster.com/2015/04/15/star-wars-galaxies-tefs/

This is a really well written article explaining the reasoning behind the decision to have TEFs. It also, in one sentence perfectly captures what ended up being my major issue with SWG and why I quit fairly early on.

But the core sticking point was “non-PvPers want to kill Stormtroopers and get faction perks.” It was part of the core fantasy for them.

This is why I hated TEFs but in general, was also a big issue with SWG in general. The game never felt like Star Wars and the few parts that did were gated behind things I didn't want to do (PVP or lots of grinding). Throw in HAM and I didn't last long despite the fact I can look back now and appreciate the player cities and the deep crafting system.

[Ingmar]

Reading about SWG game design is frightening. It's like it was deliberately designed to repel the mass market in every way.

[Riggswolfe]

Those two blog posts Raph linked were interesting reading. I remember getting a holocron drop and being like "oh, I need to master skill X?" and gradually finding out that was all anyone's holocron said. That was incredibly discouraging as I couldn't face the prospect of grinding through every career in the game. Still, it's interesting to see what could have been. I suspect that had Raph had more time (the year or so he wanted) SWG would have been much more successful and other than HAM (which I will forever hate) I would have enjoyed the game more.

I wonder if the game had come out post-prequels where we saw things like Jango Fett fighting toe-to-toe with Obi-wan and surviving if that would have changed things in that it set up an expectation that a sufficiently powerful non-force user could actually stand a chance against a Jedi.