Arrow

[jgsugden]

It just struck me that there are 3 pages of posts for this  2 year old show - and 32 for the one year old MAoS. 

When I saw the pilot, I thought they needed to recast their future Canary.  I still think it is the best option.  She just does not look comfortable in the role.

[Lakov_Sanite]

People will more easily complain than praise.

[satael]

I liked the first 2 seasons of Arrow probably more than MAoS so far despite having my moments of doubt when the arrow decided to go all mopey and not kill anyone anymore and all the island flashbacks that started to get irritating in my opinion at one point.

[Evildrider]

Arrow is probably my favorite show on TV ATM.  I watch a lot of junk, but rarely are there shows, like Arrow, where I hate missing an episode.

[Venkman]

It's definitely my favorite show, but I only watch 4, and two only because I need treadmill fodder.

I enjoyed the finale except for the emo about not killing. Sure, yes, not killing was the theme for the season. But seriously dude, this guy gutted your mother in front of you. There is no turn the other cheek scenario there.

I like that Merlyn is back. I like the tie ins with Flash, and hope they do more with Suicide Squad, especially to establish the other characters more. DeadEye and Laurel are tied for characters that annoy me. And I'm assiduously avoiding looking up any comic book origin stories. You all have dropped names like Artemis and Black Canary and every single time I look them up on whatever wiki/wikia I land in, I can't get past the dumb. Yes I mean "dumb [to me]", but goddamn, if the only way to understand this crap means "I had to be there", I'm much happier being spoon fed by linear video.\

People will more easily complain than praise.

Truth.

[jgsugden]

I've been hoping they'd introduce Captain Boomerang for the SS.  It could be a huge train wreck, but I just want to see it attempted.

[Khaldun]

I can see it easily enough in terms of the aesthetic they've got going. I mean, they introduced Solomon Grundy for god's sake and did it in a way that probably nobody but the comics readers even noticed it had happened.

In terms of characters in Suicide Squad for the first 60-ish issues, they can probably rework:

Nemesis
Captain Boomerang
Maybe Nightshade, but that starts to move more towards actual superpowers than they have to date beyond the Mirakiru guys
Kobra
Dybbuk/Djinn
Rustam and Ravan (but they probably won't want to go there in quite the same fashion as the comic did)
Thinker

Probably not Vixen.

And Felicity is essentially already Oracle without the wheelchair--I keep wondering if the showrunners now have that idea in the back of their heads, considering that she wasn't intended to be a major character the first time she appeared.

In terms of the current new 52 version, which I haven't read, the Unknown Soldier is sort of the same schtick as Nemesis: a master of disguise. That would work well in the setting of the show.

-------

The challenge I think for the showrunners is that the best matches in the DC canon to the mood of the show are all Batman villains. They've pretty much already tapped out any villain distinctively associated with Green Arrow in any incarnation. The series Checkmate might provide some characters along with Suicide Squad, though.

[Venkman]

And Felicity is essentially already Oracle without the wheelchair--I keep wondering if the showrunners now have that idea in the back of their heads, considering that she wasn't intended to be a major character the first time she appeared.

Jim Gordon's daughter was Oracle right? I wonder if they try to tie that together somehow (Felicity become his daughter). I think even without that though, her becoming disabled and wheelchair bound would be something I'd expect to see in a season finale of Arrow, maybe by extension of a season of training to become a sidekick. Followed by a whole bunch of Oliver emo. And I don't mean derisively. For the most part, this show handles characters going emo fairly well

[Evildrider]

I think the Gotham show has probably destroyed any more Batman crossover stuff with Arrow and Flash.

[Khaldun]

The characters can't really exist in the same universe unless Green Arrow is kind of a joke Batman (re: Brave and the Bold) or he's the comic-relief Marxist-blowhard of Justice League. Otherwise, Oliver is always just second-tier Batman. So they can take a few DC villains who have been both Batman and Green Arrow and/or street-level vigilante antagonists, but they can't take core Batman characters. Felicity reminds me of Oracle inasmuch as she was, post-Batgirl, essentially a geek girl whose main 'power' was being the best-informed hacker with the best computer gear she could buy (riffing off of Barbara Gordon, librarian). Oracle, of course, was also: formerly Batgirl AND in a wheelchair. But they've otherwise stolen most of what made Oracle the character she was save the wheelchair and former-Bat-hero thing.

In the universe of Arrow the TV show, Batman is the one DC character they could never introduce. Ever. Any other is ok, but not him.

[jgsugden]

They've made it official: The shared universe of Flash/Arrow is not going to be the same shared universe as Superman/Batman/Justice League.  http://www.blastr.com/2014-7-20/its-official-cws-arrow-and-flash-separate-universe-justice-league

That opens some doors to include characters on Arrow/Flash that might have been precluded because they'd also be on film with high price actors.  However, I'm disappointed.  It looks like they're cutting off more possibilities than they're creating with this decision.

Of course, as this is a DC-ish setting, they could still do cross-overs using the 'multiple realities' angle.

[HaemishM]

Completely idiotic decision on all levels. The marketing possibilities being squandered alone are just insane. Not to mention the whole stupidity of having 3 different universes out there, some sharing characters (if you count the Gotham show on Fox which will have Batman characters but not be in either cinematic or CW universe). Just plain stupid waste.

Or in other words, LOLDC.

[Khaldun]

Eh, I think it actually makes sense to keep them separate. Arrow-DC is a Nolanverse: it runs off of some level of 'realism' where there is so far only one source of metahuman-level superpowers, which was a nearly-apocalyptic threat to a single city. Now Flash has introduced a second source of metahuman-level powers, along with a single metahuman-level hero to keep it in check. Maybe Ray Palmer's appearance in the coming season suggests we'll have a third metahuman vector eventually, maybe not. If you drop Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Superman and Cyborg into that world suddenly, then Ollie suddenly seems completely superfluous.

[HaemishM]

If you drop Aquaman, Wonder Woman, Superman and Cyborg into that world suddenly, then Ollie suddenly seems completely superfluous.

Not really, because the same rules apply to dropping Batman into the Man of Steel universe. How is a "regular human" going to beat a guy that can pick up skyscrapers?

[Pennilenko]

Not really, because the same rules apply to dropping Batman into the Man of Steel universe. How is a "regular human" going to beat a guy that can pick up skyscrapers?

Superior planning and preparation...

[jgsugden]

Arrow is no longer a Nolanverse.  It is a full fledged super world on par with Marvel's MCU.  They're setting up Firestorm and already have the Flash. It may be a step towards realism beyond what we'll see in the Justice League universe, but it will still be very grounded in metahuman ability.

[Khaldun]

I think it matters that it started as a Nolanverse and grew beyond that very slowly and through discrete events. That's still really different than the Justice League movie.

Frankly I also think the Arrow & Flash producers would be wise to stay the hell away from what I assume is going to be a trainwreck.

[jgsugden]

...Frankly I also think the Arrow & Flash producers would be wise to stay the hell away from what I assume is going to be a trainwreck.

I think they could have capitalized on the promotion from being associated, could have had Wally and Oliver spend 20 seconds on film in a movie, and then ignored it.

[Tannhauser]

I agree with jg; have them cameo.  But I am sure DC doesn't know what the fuck they are doing with their DCCU *snerk*.  And I'm saying this as a fan of MoS.

[Evildrider]

I think it matters that it started as a Nolanverse and grew beyond that very slowly and through discrete events. That's still really different than the Justice League movie.

Frankly I also think the Arrow & Flash producers would be wise to stay the hell away from what I assume is going to be a trainwreck.

I am actually glad they are separate.  That means there is at least some DC stuff worth watching in Arrow and Flash.  It's better they don't get tainted by the DC Movies.

[Riggswolfe]

I think it matters that it started as a Nolanverse and grew beyond that very slowly and through discrete events. That's still really different than the Justice League movie.

Frankly I also think the Arrow & Flash producers would be wise to stay the hell away from what I assume is going to be a trainwreck.

I am actually glad they are separate.  That means there is at least some DC stuff worth watching in Arrow and Flash.  It's better they don't get tainted by the DC Movies.

^ This. I thought the decision was stupid from a big picture perspective but assuming Arrow and the Flash stay good it can only be in their favor to be distanced from what feels like a Batman and Robin level cluster fuck coming over the horizon.

[Khaldun]

Oddly enough the one character addition that alarms me a bit is Firestorm, if they do that.

The Flash I think can be kept somewhat "street-level", in an odd way. They don't have to introduce the crazy overpowering--the vibrating through walls, the speed-of-light stuff, the time travel. He can just be really fast, with some kind of healing power. If he has his classic Rogues Gallery with some modernizing and updating, he also can pretty much stay contained in his own city, with just a bit of spillover into the larger world.

The Atom, if that's where the Ray Palmer character goes, can also just be a sort of quirky low-key hero who still fits into Ollie's world--basically a specialized espionage/recon guy who knows some science. You just have to stay away from shrinking down to atomic size and all that.

Firestorm, though, well. On one hand, it's one of the greatest secret identities in comics ever and totally underutilized as a concept. But there's really no way to make his powers stay within the frame that the show has established. If they introduce him, I'd assume that he will be a short-lived tragic character who will be gone by the end of the season (give him a "half-life", what the heck). Or they'll have to put major limitations on his powers and concentrate instead the more interesting character work you can do with him.

Basically there are five characters that I think you just cannot introduce into Arrow without wrecking the whole thing: Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter. I suppose you could introduce Martian Manhunter if you really, really alter the character massively.

[jgsugden]

Alas, Time Travel (at leats) is in the cards.  We've already heard the story of how his mom seemed to have been murdered by a 'man in a blur'. That is a set up for something that relies on time travel.   If you look at the last season of Arrow, and the promos for where Arrow and Flash are going in their next seasons, it is clear that they're aiming to make these shows metahuman focused. 

[Khaldun]

Ah, right--that's clearly the Reverse Flash, and yeah, time travel--but I'm guessing it will be a one-off accident when it happens, rather than Flash routinely jetting around through time like Doctor Who.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Ah, right--that's clearly the Reverse Flash, and yeah, time travel--but I'm guessing it will be a one-off accident when it happens, rather than Flash routinely jetting around through time like Doctor Who.

Wibbly wobbly speedy forcey bullshit.

[Pennilenko]

Not that I am trying to pick on anybody specifically, but I find it amusing just where people choose to draw their line of believability.

[Lakov_Sanite]

 Personally I'm down for time travel and metahumans but there's still gonna be a lot of hand waving bullshit going on to explain it all.  Par for the course in comics.

[Evildrider]

Supposedly they are pulling a lot from the Rebirth story arc.  I don't read DC so not sure that f I remembered you it right. 

[Evildrider]

As for Arrow news.. Roy finally gets a costume. 

[Lakov_Sanite]

Either that's a terrible photoshop or that man's head is gigantic.

[Khaldun]

It's not really about believability at all for me. The Flash can jet through time when he takes a crap if that makes for interesting stories. But I think the jury is in--it generally doesn't. Casual time travel is okay for a kind of whimsy but it doesn't really help a superhero story gain traction. Kurt Busiek tried to tackle this problem a bit with Kang the Conqueror--basically, if he's got time travel, why does he *ever* get beaten, why not just arrive ten seconds before Thor punches his face in and kill Thor? Answer: it's a weird psychological hang-up he has OR (depending on the story) it's timey-wimey. Any character or situation that has time travel that isn't just about Bill-and-Ted level whimsy eventually has to either swear off of time-travel driven stories or set serious rules for them. Since The Flash is mostly about a guy who runs fast punching super-villains in the face, it might be a problem if Barry travelled through time every single episode to fix whatever it is that didn't go right in the first 30 minutes. Just as a matter of story-telling.

[Lakov_Sanite]

If flash's mom doesn't die he can never become the flash and the villain who killed his mom would have never killed her if not to get at the flash,  so it's a fixed point in time?

edit:fixed for paradoxes.

[Samwise]

If flash's mom dies he can never be flash and the villain who killed his mom would have never killed her so it's a fixed point in time?

[Setanta]

First episode of the Flash seems to imply time travel of some sort in the closing scene. Very watchable episode. The inner jury is out of S3E1 of Arrow.

[jgsugden]

Flash now has its own thread....

All I can say about Arrow is last night had the moment I knew was coming, but was not looking forward to seeing....