Robert Jordan's "The Wheel of Time" Visible Spoilers Thread

[Tale]

I haven't read the books and I watched all three episodes. To me, the first episode was poor and I expected a corny 6/10 level fantasy yarn.

Episode 2 was better. Episode 3 was very good. So now I'm on board.

[Teleku]

Yeah, they screwed up the first episode pretty bad.  Which is dumb because it's sort of important to make the intro engaging, lol.  Not sure why they did it the way they did.

A ton different from the books in the first three episodes, but yeah, it improves as it goes.  I'll stick around for the first season to see how they work it out.

Mat and Perrin's backstory changes were really the only ones that gave me pause. Matt's parents being pieces of shit was whatever and is likely to be forgotten as soon as they leave the Two Rivers - they could have stuck with "he just straight up steals a girl's jewelry" to show how much of a piece of shit he really is. Perrin being married though is a giant shift from the books, to the point he's not even remotely the same character. I liked Perrin in the books, but not so much that I really care that much about the change, just that it means a lot of the beats he faced when I read it won't make any sense in how he reacts to women.

To be fair, the implication for Mat is that he steals to help feed his sisters that is alcoholic fucked up parents can't (mostly.  Obviously also has a gambling addiction).  The whole Perrin change up is wild, but I actually think that does set up his later interactions with certain women pretty well.  But again, lol at them going all grimdark on the origins for everybody.  Wasn't expecting that.

[Khaldun]

I think that's their way of saying "no, these are not hobbits and this is not the Shire". Though not all hobbits are nice, either...

[Threash]

Has there been any word on why the actor for Mat was recast?

[lamaros]

With no exposure to the books it didn't feel grimdark at all to me, just pretty generic background stuff. I don't quite get why Mat and Rand are friends, the Mat characterisation hasn't really settled much. He's a shithead with a heart of gold? Friends with the goody two-shoes guy? It is thieving meant to be secret to Rand? I don't quite get it as yet.

[Teleku]

In the books, the Two Rivers is basically the shire.  All three of the leads are upper teens who all come from happy homes.  Mat is the troublemaker, but trouble in that he likes to play pranks on people and make lots of jokes.  Perrin isn't married and is just the blacksmith's apprentice, Rand is awkwardly courting Egwene in a shy way (not banging in the basement of the inn).  Everybody in the Two Rivers are mostly stout sensible people.  Happy go lucky innocent country bumpkins.  Standard fantasy trope stuff, which is why they are all friends.  So yes, all the changes felt like they hilariously grimdarked it compared to source material (mind you the series gets a lot darker once they leave, but this is how the Two Rivers is setup).

[lamaros]

[SurfD]

Yeah, the change in character for Matt and Perrin both seem like needless attempts to make the series more "dark", "edgy" and "angsty" from the getgo, when it really doesn't need that at all since it BUILDS to that quite well over time.

Matt is supposed to be a scamp, not a scoundrel.  The lighthearted local troublemaker.
Perrin is the gentle giant, who appears "slow" to those who don't know him, but is basically just cautious and deliberate in everything he does because he is aware that his personal strength means that he could easily hurt someone if he isn't careful.   Turning him into someone with "rage issues" is fucking idiotic.  It's literally the opposite of what his character is as presented in the books.

[Ashamanchill]

So I understand why the show wanted to escort us out of the Two Rivers as fast as possible, but believe it or not there is a reason Robert Jordan spent 100 or so pages of build up there. It's because the 5 characters from there won't shut the fuck up about it for the whole 14 books. "Oh you wear grey wool?!?! We wear brown wool in the Two Rivers. Look at these shitty bows, they are no Two Rivers longbows. Wow, chicks in the Aiel Waste will suck your dick?* They sure don't do that in the Two Rivers" They are always comparing something where they are, to a specific from their home. It's not just a foible, or a character trait either, it's actually a major theme in the series. Like in any other fantasy title, the characters start out provincial, and become exposed to more and more of the outside world. However, aside from a few other core characters, everyone else in the whole fucking land is obsessed with how things have always been done this way, and they always will be done this way and it's crazy to suggest otherwise, whereas the initial cosmopolitan shock the Two Rivers crew receives is enough to open their eyes to seeing things a different way. It's the main driver for a lot of the plot as a matter of fact.

Also, in the opening chapters of the first book, we are exposed to several names of various townsfolk and quick blurbs about their personalities, which seem entirely superfluous at first, as they are quickly in the rearview mirror. But, as they characters acquire power in their own various ways, they then have to order around people they once knew, and often potentially send them to their deaths. How they each deal with these realities of their new stations is another critical theme of the series.

The show just kinda does away with that. We blast out of the Two Rivers before their has been any chance at all to establish exactly what makes it the Two Rivers, and not some town outside of Cairhien. At one point in the show Matt remarks to a character "You can tell I'm from the Two Rivers?" and the character says "It's all over you, in the way you speak, dress, etc" And I was like, you got me. He looks, sounds, and acts identical to everyone else in the little village that is not in the Two Rivers. If I didn't know who he was, I as a viewer wouldn't have been able to tell. And I know that particular character is supposed to be worldly, but this is a tv show. This is its chance to show me, instead of just telling me.  Again, I understand why they did all this, but I do think it will come at a cost.

As for the grimdark Perrin and Matt, ya the thing with Perrin's wife is dumb, but it actually makes sense with Matt. The show ages up these characters a critical couple years, and if they kept Matt the same ("hey guys, I just unleashed a badger in the yucky girls locker room!"), it would have looked like someone's kid brother was tagging along. It would have stuck out in a weird way. As readers of at least the first 4 books will know, Matt is going to be by far the hardest to pull off because of how much he changes.

I knew you were a WOT megafan the first time I ever saw your nick here. :)

Ayup. That's what happens when I make a name after my favourite scene (actual line: "Ashaman, kill!") while I was stoned.

*As if this sexless series would ever be that sexually open.

[Draegan]

Yeah, they screwed up the first episode pretty bad.  Which is dumb because it's sort of important to make the intro engaging, lol.  Not sure why they did it the way they did.

A ton different from the books in the first three episodes, but yeah, it improves as it goes.  I'll stick around for the first season to see how they work it out.

Mat and Perrin's backstory changes were really the only ones that gave me pause. Matt's parents being pieces of shit was whatever and is likely to be forgotten as soon as they leave the Two Rivers - they could have stuck with "he just straight up steals a girl's jewelry" to show how much of a piece of shit he really is. Perrin being married though is a giant shift from the books, to the point he's not even remotely the same character. I liked Perrin in the books, but not so much that I really care that much about the change, just that it means a lot of the beats he faced when I read it won't make any sense in how he reacts to women.

To be fair, the implication for Mat is that he steals to help feed his sisters that is alcoholic fucked up parents can't (mostly.  Obviously also has a gambling addiction).  The whole Perrin change up is wild, but I actually think that does set up his later interactions with certain women pretty well.  But again, lol at them going all grimdark on the origins for everybody.  Wasn't expecting that.

I think it gives the whole hammer vs. axe thing a whole different angle. 

[Draegan]

  It's literally the opposite of what his character is as presented in the books.

This is a good thing since his character is awful in the books (and basically useless). He's a walking remote control for wolves and someone to whine at Rand (before Rand stops being a character in the books and becomes a plot device).

[Morat20]

I think that's their way of saying "no, these are not hobbits and this is not the Shire". Though not all hobbits are nice, either...

My headcanon is that while the Rangers allow the hobbits to lead fat, happy lives -- there is an order of Hobbit assassins that ALSO  helps hobbits lead fat, happy lives.

On the border are a bunch of sneaky, cold, "for the shire" cutthroats that make sure the wrong sort don't wake up after their first night inside the borders.

Orcs and bandits don't hear about fat, rich, happy hobbits if no one untrustworthy ever manages to leave with their good news.

[Ashamanchill]

  It's literally the opposite of what his character is as presented in the books.

This is a good thing since his character is awful in the books (and basically useless). He's a walking remote control for wolves and someone to whine at Rand (before Rand stops being a character in the books and becomes a plot device).

At the start. But the wolves stop being used seriously very early on as power creep passes them right by. His character is not at all useless, as he rounds out the trinity of the three. Rand is the destroyer, Matt the preserver, Perrin is the creator. Or, in Norse, Tyr, Odin, and Thor.

[Khaldun]

I think that's their way of saying "no, these are not hobbits and this is not the Shire". Though not all hobbits are nice, either...

My headcanon is that while the Rangers allow the hobbits to lead fat, happy lives -- there is an order of Hobbit assassins that ALSO  helps hobbits lead fat, happy lives.

On the border are a bunch of sneaky, cold, "for the shire" cutthroats that make sure the wrong sort don't wake up after their first night inside the borders.

Orcs and bandits don't hear about fat, rich, happy hobbits if no one untrustworthy ever manages to leave with their good news.

They seem to have missed a fair number of Sackville-Bagginses and Sandymen.

[Morat20]

They seem to have missed a fair number of Sackville-Bagginses and Sandymen.

Well you can't kill your own kin, even if they're assholes. But they are excellent examples that hobbit's aren't all sweet and nice.

Which, you know, means a race of people who, if I remember bits of the Hobbit and LOTR carefully, can pretty much casually disappear from the view of most, at least when out in nature.

If untrained rando hobbits can casually wander into the nearest bush and then disappear from reality, unless you're a skilled ranger or elf, imagine what a decently trained one could do.

I mean ring or not, Bilbo still snuck around orcs, trolls, more orcs, elves, and a dragon. That's some pretty light footsteps, and he was a fat, lazy hobbit.

[Ashamanchill]

We sleep soundly in our beds because rough hobbits stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.

-Windo CurHill

[slog]

Watched the first episode.  I can't see this lasting unless Amazon really wants to waste their money.  One of the reasons Game of Thrones worked so well (at least in the first few seasons) was that the world was believable, the people actually acted like people, and they took their time to setup the story.  The whole thing just felt so rushed and we never even got a chance to get to know any of the characters.

[lamaros]

It gets a little better. But yeah, if you didn't know anything and heard this was based on a book series you'd assume it was a fairly average YA one.

[HaemishM]

TBF, the book series started as an A-Tier fantasy mash up of Dune and Tolkien, before descending into worse than YA-trash by the time I quit it in book 4 or 5.

[Ashamanchill]

Don't forget well trodden Norse and Arthurian Mythos! I can't comment on the YA thing, as I don't read YA, and I actually prefer the series as it gets going past books 4-5.

[Tale]

Hoo yeah, episode 4. I'm more on board now.

[Threash]

Yeah, that was some good shit.

[Cyrrex]

I am getting pretty confused by these more than luke warm opinions.  Might have to hoist la bandera negra.

[Threash]

I mean, it's not incredible and they are rushing quite a bit through the story (which would be GREAT later on, but not so much now) but its good fun fantasy tv.

[Rendakor]

Yea, I'm enjoying it but only because my expectations were really low. They certainly seem to be rushing through things, which is a shame since EotW is a solid book. Thom and Aram seem really good castings. Liandrin, uh...does not look how I imagined her.

[Threash]

Liandrin, uh...does not look how I imagined her.

Lol, yeah Liandrin should be on Margot Robbie's level and not... well, what we got.

[Teleku]

Well, the other thing we noticed is that most of the cast is not... very attractive, heh.  It's like they almost went out of their way to hire plain/ugly actors, which makes it feel a bit off because the books had a lot to say about the looks of a lot of the characters.

Game of Thrones, this is not.  

[Ashamanchill]

Well, the other thing we noticed is that most of the cast is not... very attractive, heh.  It's like they almost went out of their way to hire plain/ugly actors, which makes it feel a bit off because the books had a lot to say about the looks of a lot of the characters.

Game of Thrones, this is not.  

Agreed. It makes Rand stand out even more. The Dragon could be anyone of you my ass.

[Sir T]

Game of Thrones wouldn't have been as popular if it had been a bunch of fat inbred nobles, let's be honest. :D

[Threash]

Being nearly porn in the early seasons certainly helped its popularity.

[HaemishM]

After watching the 4th episode, I've decided to just not worry one whit about how much it leaves off or changes from the books. I'm not heavily invested in them anyway. I think you really need to look at this as its own thing, "inspired by Wheel of Time" more than "an adaptation of." If you like fantasy, it's a pretty good bit of TV fantasy with a slightly above TV budget. The performances get better after the first episode, the effects are mostly decent, and there are a lot worse things to watch on TV. If you don't like fantasy, you'll hate this, if you do, chances are good you'll like this unless you are the most anal retentive incel Jordan fanatic on the Internet.

I do think their insistence on "which one is the Dragon" might end up being a bit of a waste but again, it's going its own way.

[Teleku]

Yeah, I think re-writing and removing a lot of scenes/plot just to keep the whole 'who is the Dragon' thing more mysterious was probably a wasted effort, but whatever.  With episode 4 they've really leaned into it.  First it was heavily hinted it was Egwene in the 2nd or 3rd episode, then Rand in the 3rd episode with his door smash, then Mat in Episode 4 (he's just like my nephew Owen, he's showing all the signs!), then Nynaeve at the very end (Burns like the sun!, or whatever the quote was).

I don't know if it was intentional, but I liked the sort of Easter egg in Liandrin asking Nynaeve if she's pronouncing her name correctly.  I know that was the biggest question about the book I had for a long time after I started reading.   

[slog]

This is my favorite review so far.

The main problem is that it isn’t dirty enough. And no, I don’t mean it lacks the gratuitous saucy scenes in Game of Thrones where everyone was wearing a whole bottle of olive oil.

I mean, it’s literally not dirty enough. The village that Moiraine visits feels like Valley of the Hipsters, where good-looking 20-somethings wander around a spotless town in carefully curated vintage outfits. It feels like a Center Parcs take on an ancient fantasy village high in the mountains — I couldn’t see any smells.

The villagers are having a lovely dance when these monsters with curly horns arrive out of nowhere and start killing all around them. There is no suspense, just 10 minutes of CGI action straight out of a video game, before Moiraine pulls a bit of magic and turns the tide in favour of the good-looking hipsters.

I only met the hipsters 30 minutes earlier, so I don’t care who lives or dies. They seem sad that some friends and family die at the hands of the curly horned monsters, but not as sad as they’d be if their latest haircut didn’t quite work. Moiraine says some of them have to leave and head to somewhere called The White Tower.

Valley of the Hipsters indeed.

[rattran]

Yeah, I think re-writing and removing a lot of scenes/plot just to keep the whole 'who is the Dragon' thing more mysterious was probably a wasted effort, but whatever.  With episode 4 they've really leaned into it.  First it was heavily hinted it was Egwene in the 2nd or 3rd episode, then Rand in the 3rd episode with his door smash, then Mat in Episode 4 (he's just like my nephew Owen, he's showing all the signs!), then Nynaeve at the very end (Burns like the sun!, or whatever the quote was).

Maybe they're all the Dragon. Together. Some bullshit about the power of friendship. Doesn't really matter, Amazon will cancel it after the second or third season, so it's not like the showrunners really need a longterm plan.

[Reg]

If it has a big enough cult following it could be saved by Netflix the same way Lucifer was.