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Topic: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (Read 286837 times)
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sickrubik
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Posts: 2967
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She was secretary to the Justice Society, not the League. The overall point stands, but just wanted to clarify.
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beer geek.
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Khaldun
Terracotta Army
Posts: 15163
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You're thinking of the Justice Society, actually. [ah, I see someone else got to this point first]
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Merusk
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Posts: 27449
Badge Whore
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Isn't the larger problem with DC vs Marvel centered around the alter-ego question?
DC's players are Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman. They masquerade as Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne and Diana Carter but those aren't who they are.
Marvel's players are Peter Parker, Bruce Banner, Tony Stark. Their alter egos are the superheroes.
One you're dealing with the impact of being a super hero on a human being, flawed or smart or orphaned. That's relateable, you can see yourself in their shoes. It's easy to understand the crisis of how the superhero problem impacts their human life, relationships or aspirations.
The other, you're dealing with a super-powered being dealing with the difficulties of being that being. Solving problems and dealing with issues much bigger than anything you or I will ever handle. It takes a different approach. You can't try and make them relateable beings because they are not. It has to be about the bigger problem, how they handle that.
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The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
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Khaldun
Terracotta Army
Posts: 15163
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This is a subset of the problem with DC's characters being icons/myths and Marvel's characters being people, flaws and all.
Green Arrow is actually a lovely case of this. So on the surface he and Hawkeye are the same, right down to going back and forth between being guys who use boxing glove arrows and other gimmicks and guys who are just good fighters who also shoot sharp pointy arrows into the flesh of gangsters.
But who is Green Arrow as a person? He starts as a Bruce Wayne clone without the parental trauma--basically they graft Robinson Crusoe into Bruce Wayne. Then who is he? He's a guy who loses his fortune and goes "Easy Rider". Then he gets the fortune back. Then he loses it again. Then he gets it back. He's a liberal crusader. He's grim. Then he's funny. Then he's dead. Then he's not dead. He's got a long-time girlfriend, but then he's a rake who hits on all sorts of women. He's got a sidekick! Then he neglects the sidekick and he takes heroin. Then he's got another sidekick. And so on. The person in the middle of that is mostly a cipher who is anchored by his power set, his costume, and a bit of his history.
Hawkeye seems equally mutable if you look at his costumes and even his power shifts (since for a while he was Goliath) but actually the person at the heart of it--angry orphan who has had brushes with the law and has some unsavory guys in his background, guy who wants to be a leader but who also often acts impulsively or foolishly, guy who has a problem with authority figures and is unlucky in love--that's all pretty consistent, whether or not he's Goliath or he's a trick archer with gimmick arrows or he's a redesigned not-trick archer who looks like the character from the film.
A DC film either has to jack up the mythic and legendary, which maybe only works for Batman because he's the only myth they have left that anybody really likes or responds to, or it has to settle on the person and make him interesting. Which so far mostly DC films have not at all managed to do. In a lot of cases I'm not sure they can--if I was starting from scratch, the person I would give the most powerful weapon in the universe to if I wanted to write interesting stories would not be Hal Jordan, Kyle Rayner, Guy Gardner or any of those guys. None of them are interesting people, really, and so all you have left is the legendary/mythic story of the most powerful weapon in the universe and the most cosmic police force that doles it out. Which is assuredly not the Green Lantern film that got made.
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Sir T
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Posts: 14223
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If you want some Devils advocacy on the wonder woman thing, you could bring up how Sue Storm of the fantastic 4 was when she was first conceived. She wasn't just a life support system for a pair of tits like she was in the 2 movies, she was EVEN MORE STUPID. She was so stupid that they had kids writing in complaining about how utterly stupid it was that this dingbat was being being let near a set of pliers, let alone dangerous villains. Of course they gave her a totally non threataning superpower at first, which made her even more useless. Go feminism. ![](http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/7/8/1/178781.jpg?v=1) For more Sue Storm stupidity, check out http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-beloved-superheroes-who-are-actually-really-stupid/
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Hic sunt dracones.
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Margalis
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Posts: 12335
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That's a little unfair given that the FF is kind of a dysfunctional family. (Just a little, mind you) In the old comics Sue was always crying about everything and felt left out, Ben was always grousing about his situation, Reed was kind of an ass.
But they "fixed" her over time anyway. The problem with WW is that in terms of Justice League she's just a weak Superman and in terms of her own thing she has no civilian identity. She's just Wonder Woman, some magical Amazon heroine, so it always seems stupid when she pretends to be a normal person and does normal person things.
There was that TV pilot where she was like an ad exec or something - it was laughably bad. Why would Wonder Woman dress up in a power suit and give a powerpoint presentation?
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vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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rk47
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6236
The Patron Saint of Radicalthons
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Wonder Woman She's born in an island full of wimin. She's made out of clay. And went to a 'Man's world' When she is bound by a man, she loses her power. Conveniently, her lasso of truth can be used on her. I'm a fan. ![awesome, for real](http://forums.f13.net/Smileys/classic/emot-awesome.gif)
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Colonel Sanders is back in my wallet
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Samwise
Moderator
Posts: 19228
sentient yeast infection
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Wonder Woman was originally conceived by a psychologist (with input from his wife IIRC) who wanted to create a strong feminine role model that would make girls proud of being girls, and show that they didn't need to emulate men in order to be considered strong. By modern standards Wonder Woman would be considered antifeminist because of her obvious sex appeal, but she was definitely intended to be a feminist role model rather than wank material.
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"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
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Evildrider
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5521
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Wonder Woman was originally conceived by a psychologist (with input from his wife IIRC) who wanted to create a strong feminine role model that would make girls proud of being girls, and show that they didn't need to emulate men in order to be considered strong. By modern standards Wonder Woman would be considered antifeminist because of her obvious sex appeal, but she was definitely intended to be a feminist role model rather than wank material.
That's what Power Girl is for!
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jgsugden
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3888
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Just like people, what happens after conception is far more important to characters than what the plan was at conception. She was PG porn for the era, with nothing to contribute but legs and female subservience. Regardless, what she was in the 40s is pretty irrelevant at this point. What she is now is more important, and that is still PG porn. To quote Jessica Rabbit...
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2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
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Khaldun
Terracotta Army
Posts: 15163
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Wonder Woman was originally conceived by a psychologist (with input from his wife IIRC) who wanted to create a strong feminine role model that would make girls proud of being girls, and show that they didn't need to emulate men in order to be considered strong. By modern standards Wonder Woman would be considered antifeminist because of her obvious sex appeal, but she was definitely intended to be a feminist role model rather than wank material.
You're leaving a few things about Marston, though. The stuff about submission (including the erotic side of it) was an integral part of his conception of the character and he thought that the character was as important for boys as girls as it might teach them to submit to strong women, which he thought was key for creating a more civilized and peaceful world.
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jgsugden
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3888
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Go ahead you fucks. Go ahead and try to defend this move. ![smiley](http://forums.f13.net/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif) (Note that fucks, in this context, is a term of endearment...)
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« Last Edit: September 14, 2013, 06:53:49 PM by jgsugden »
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2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
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Merusk
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Posts: 27449
Badge Whore
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I'm going with "Bieber trolls theinterwebz" until an announcement from WB rather than the Instagram site of a guy who knows how much the web hates him.
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The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
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Lakov_Sanite
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7590
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photoshopped cause beiber has a douchy new moustache now and obviously shopped.
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~a horrific, dark simulacrum that glares balefully at us, with evil intent.
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SurfD
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4035
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Indeed. I mean, holy christ, what is he doing that puts him so close to the bathroom floor that the toilet paper roll is ABOVE his head....
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Darwinism is the Gateway Science.
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jgsugden
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3888
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Confirmed it came from Bieber, but likely still a prank.
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2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
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Cyrrex
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10603
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I want to live in a world where Bieber gets cast as the Boy Wonder, and earns an Oscar for his timeless portrayal of the tragic, youthful ward. The whole internet will be like "damn, I didn't know Bieber had it in him."
Because that would be hysterical. I hate Bieber, but I would love that for some reason.
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"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
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jgsugden
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3888
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I want to live in a world where Bieber gets cast as the Boy Wonder, and earns an Oscar for his timeless portrayal of the tragic, youthful ward. The whole internet will be like "damn, I didn't know Bieber had it in him."
Because that would be hysterical. I hate Bieber, but I would love that for some reason.
I want to live in a world where Bieber gets cast off a boat and a giant whale eats him. Millions of teenage girls mourn him for 38 seconds until their ADHD turns them to the next Bieber clone and by 2016 Bieber is nothing more than a trivia question that most people can't answer. Best guess: This is going to be a Funny or Die thing.
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2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
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Merusk
Terracotta Army
Posts: 27449
Badge Whore
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Yeah, based on the follow-up it's a FoD thing.
Just remember, people were all about Brittney Spears, 98 degrees, N'Sync, Backstreet Boys, and NKOTB before too. Bieber, too, shall pass.
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The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
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Khaldun
Terracotta Army
Posts: 15163
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I want to live in a world where Bieber gets cast as the Boy Wonder, and earns an Oscar for his timeless portrayal of the tragic, youthful ward. The whole internet will be like "damn, I didn't know Bieber had it in him."
Because that would be hysterical. I hate Bieber, but I would love that for some reason.
I want to live in a world where Bieber gets cast as the Jason Todd Robin and they decide to adapt "Death in the Family" for the first five minutes of the film.
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Ironwood
Terracotta Army
Posts: 28240
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Yeah, based on the follow-up it's a FoD thing.
Just remember, people were all about Brittney Spears, 98 degrees, N'Sync, Backstreet Boys, and NKOTB before too. Bieber, too, shall pass.
Here's what's funny about that, to my mind; I had heard all those chaps sing and perform and whatnot, but I've heard a metric fuckton about Bieber (none of it good) and I've yet to witness the horror that is him doing anything. Lucky escape there then.
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"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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shiznitz
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4268
the plural of mangina
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I want to live in a world where Bieber gets cast as the Boy Wonder, and earns an Oscar for his timeless portrayal of the tragic, youthful ward. The whole internet will be like "damn, I didn't know Bieber had it in him."
Because that would be hysterical. I hate Bieber, but I would love that for some reason.
I want to live in a world where Bieber gets cast as the Jason Todd Robin and they decide to adapt "Death in the Family" for the first five minutes of the film. I want to live in a world where someone remakes Oz as a gay S&M porno and Bieber plays the new inmate.
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I have never played WoW.
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Ingmar
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Posts: 19280
Auto Assault Affectionado
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Getting a little Freudian in here.
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The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT. Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
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Teleku
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10510
https://i.imgur.com/mcj5kz7.png
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That's what she said.
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"My great-grandfather did not travel across four thousand miles of the Atlantic Ocean to see this nation overrun by immigrants. He did it because he killed a man back in Ireland. That's the rumor." -Stephen Colbert
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jgsugden
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3888
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Getting a little Freudian in here. Uhhhh... have you taken a careful look at your avatar?
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2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
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sickrubik
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2967
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beer geek.
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DraconianOne
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2905
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Here's what's funny about that, to my mind; I had heard all those chaps sing and perform and whatnot, but I've heard a metric fuckton about Bieber (none of it good) and I've yet to witness the horror that is him doing anything.
I don't know - he's kinda responsible for one of the coolest bits of the Dredd 3D soundtrack. No, really!
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A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
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Ironwood
Terracotta Army
Posts: 28240
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Really ? Was it in the film ? Cause I've seen that 3 times.
Ah well.
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"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
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DraconianOne
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2905
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A point can be MOOT. MUTE is more along the lines of what you should be. - WayAbvPar
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Samwise
Moderator
Posts: 19228
sentient yeast infection
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Dredd was a surprisingly excellent movie.
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"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
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Rendakor
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10131
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I want to live in a world where Bieber gets cast as the Boy Wonder, and earns an Oscar for his timeless portrayal of the tragic, youthful ward. The whole internet will be like "damn, I didn't know Bieber had it in him."
Because that would be hysterical. I hate Bieber, but I would love that for some reason.
It's happened before; see DiCaprio in Catch Me If You Can.
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"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
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Cyrrex
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10603
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I want to live in a world where Bieber gets cast as the Boy Wonder, and earns an Oscar for his timeless portrayal of the tragic, youthful ward. The whole internet will be like "damn, I didn't know Bieber had it in him."
Because that would be hysterical. I hate Bieber, but I would love that for some reason.
It's happened before; see DiCaprio in Catch Me If You Can. Not sure what you mean? I don't remember a time when I didn't think DiCaprio was a really good actor.
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"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
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Pezzle
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Posts: 1618
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I can! Right now! His performances might be better, but he still ruins scenes for me. I like some movies in spite of him though.
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Rendakor
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Posts: 10131
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Right after Titanic he was incredibly unpopular, particularly among young males.
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"i can't be a star citizen. they won't even give me a star green card"
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